Portal:12: Vitalik Buterin - The Ethereal Prince and His Virtual Machine

Unedited Transcript
0:00:07.130,0:00:11.130 hello you found the portal

0:00:09.450,0:00:13.440 I'm your host Eric Weinstein and I'm

0:00:11.130,0:00:18.390 sitting here today with metallic beaut

0:00:13.440,0:00:20.850 uhrin the leader and a founder of the

0:00:18.390,0:00:22.560 etherium world of cryptocurrencies and

0:00:20.850,0:00:24.390 smart contracts welcome to the portal

0:00:22.560,0:00:27.240 thank you it's good to be here Eric it's

0:00:24.390,0:00:28.740 terrific to have you now in general when

0:00:27.240,0:00:30.480 I see you interviewed immediately

0:00:28.740,0:00:32.850 everybody goes straight to crypto

0:00:30.480,0:00:34.350 currencies in a Myriam but one of the

0:00:32.850,0:00:37.469 things that I found fascinating about

0:00:34.350,0:00:40.800 your story is is that in order to be a

0:00:37.469,0:00:44.309 good steward of this new and emerging

0:00:40.800,0:00:46.950 economics you've actually applied

0:00:44.309,0:00:49.620 yourself a great deal to standard and

0:00:46.950,0:00:52.980 regular economic theory and I was

0:00:49.620,0:00:55.710 curious if I understand correctly you

0:00:52.980,0:00:57.719 dropped out of college after a year

0:00:55.710,0:00:59.160 you're self-taught in economics but

0:00:57.719,0:01:01.649 you've taken a real interest in

0:00:59.160,0:01:03.290 understanding how markets and economic

0:01:01.649,0:01:06.450 theory work is that a fair description

0:01:03.290,0:01:10.380 yeah I think so and economics has been

0:01:06.450,0:01:13.500 of an interest for me definitely for a

0:01:10.380,0:01:17.310 long time I mean when I discovered

0:01:13.500,0:01:18.720 Bitcoin back in 2011 and I was still in

0:01:17.310,0:01:21.960 high school it was this kind of

0:01:18.720,0:01:26.070 interesting confluence of ideas that I

0:01:21.960,0:01:28.740 was already pretty attracted to so open

0:01:26.070,0:01:30.299 source culture that was something that a

0:01:28.740,0:01:33.030 and a good friend from high school a

0:01:30.299,0:01:34.920 Christopher all I had already and if

0:01:33.030,0:01:38.369 indoctrinated me with really well I'm

0:01:34.920,0:01:42.540 the of the mathematical in cryptographic

0:01:38.369,0:01:45.240 aspects also libertarianism in Austrian

0:01:42.540,0:01:47.130 economics was kind of the zeitgeist of

0:01:45.240,0:01:49.710 the Bitcoin space at the day and those

0:01:47.130,0:01:53.280 were of ideas that I definitely have

0:01:49.710,0:01:56.250 found philosophically quite attractive

0:01:53.280,0:01:59.009 at that time and you know I was

0:01:56.250,0:02:01.979 definitely curious and I read a bunch of

0:01:59.009,0:02:03.899 books a yeah and read the Austrian

0:02:01.979,0:02:05.969 economics Kanaan because that's what the

0:02:03.899,0:02:09.810 Bitcoin people were kind of talking

0:02:05.969,0:02:12.090 about all day I read some kind of

0:02:09.810,0:02:13.170 behavioral economics literature Ariely

0:02:12.090,0:02:15.030 Kahneman and

0:02:13.170,0:02:17.940 Nakia D&E and all of those people just

0:02:15.030,0:02:22.770 because I knew that I had to read other

0:02:17.940,0:02:26.040 stuff for balance um and yeah and also

0:02:22.770,0:02:28.830 economics itself is a kind in pretty

0:02:26.040,0:02:30.270 mathematical and I've subject well kind

0:02:28.830,0:02:33.840 of right it's it's on the borderline

0:02:30.270,0:02:35.880 because it's kind of both mathematical

0:02:33.840,0:02:37.709 and you got your curves and your

0:02:35.880,0:02:39.569 derivatives and your intersections but

0:02:37.709,0:02:42.500 also it's humanity is right it's like

0:02:39.569,0:02:46.140 really at this intersection of like both

0:02:42.500,0:02:48.330 figuring out how to apply these models

0:02:46.140,0:02:49.709 to and of specific cases and also trying

0:02:48.330,0:02:51.360 to figure out well which models are

0:02:49.709,0:02:53.190 really correct in the first place and

0:02:51.360,0:02:54.989 like the first question you can't answer

0:02:53.190,0:02:57.600 with math but the second question you

0:02:54.989,0:02:58.470 really can't and you need other kinds of

0:02:57.600,0:03:01.769 thinking as well

0:02:58.470,0:03:05.630 well this is an area of my own interest

0:03:01.769,0:03:08.310 because the way I see it economics is

0:03:05.630,0:03:10.560 odd in a way that very few people I

0:03:08.310,0:03:12.690 think have appreciated in that if we

0:03:10.560,0:03:15.269 take what could be argued to be our two

0:03:12.690,0:03:17.970 greatest ideas in scientific scientific

0:03:15.269,0:03:22.079 man let's say one would be sort of the

0:03:17.970,0:03:24.420 geometric dynamics of physics and

0:03:22.079,0:03:27.480 economics has been constructed to be and

0:03:24.420,0:03:30.180 as if physics if you will and on the

0:03:27.480,0:03:31.859 other hand and inherits from the theory

0:03:30.180,0:03:33.690 of selection you could say that markets

0:03:31.859,0:03:35.850 are the continuation of systems of

0:03:33.690,0:03:38.700 selective pressures by other means and

0:03:35.850,0:03:42.329 so what happens when our two greatest

0:03:38.700,0:03:45.420 ideas touch each other and they do it in

0:03:42.329,0:03:47.370 a place which has very bizarre

0:03:45.420,0:03:50.640 properties by my way of thinking that is

0:03:47.370,0:03:52.890 that economists are on the one hand very

0:03:50.640,0:03:54.510 rigorous thinkers and are also very

0:03:52.890,0:03:57.180 susceptible to what we might call

0:03:54.510,0:03:59.940 political economy and distorted thinking

0:03:57.180,0:04:05.850 does that ring true to you yeah

0:03:59.940,0:04:09.900 definitely there's definitely this kind

0:04:05.850,0:04:12.060 of combination of I think for on the one

0:04:09.900,0:04:15.139 hand you have these mathematical

0:04:12.060,0:04:18.930 formulas and on the other hand these

0:04:15.139,0:04:21.810 assumptions and often like the

0:04:18.930,0:04:23.789 assumptions can be pretty pretty well

0:04:21.810,0:04:26.510 hidden and they're kind of difficult to

0:04:23.789,0:04:28.430 see at first glance right in

0:04:26.510,0:04:32.230 like it really can be subtle right so

0:04:28.430,0:04:34.220 like one of the arguments that

0:04:32.230,0:04:35.690 economists tend to put forward is

0:04:34.220,0:04:38.000 basically like mutually beneficial

0:04:35.690,0:04:39.260 transactions are but are beneficial and

0:04:38.000,0:04:43.190 so like we should not interfere with

0:04:39.260,0:04:45.590 them right like if I have a client

0:04:43.190,0:04:47.060 battle and I I want to sell you the

0:04:45.590,0:04:49.430 Klein bottle you're willing to pay five

0:04:47.060,0:04:50.870 dollars then I clearly value it at less

0:04:49.430,0:04:52.340 than five dollars you evaluated more

0:04:50.870,0:04:55.340 than five dollars therefore the

0:04:52.340,0:04:57.350 transactions on net good and like I

0:04:55.340,0:04:58.280 therefore I should give you the bottle

0:04:57.350,0:05:02.180 and you should give me the money and

0:04:58.280,0:05:06.140 that's what we would do but at the the

0:05:02.180,0:05:08.990 reasons why that 10 sometimes breaks

0:05:06.140,0:05:10.640 down liquor in many ways more subtle

0:05:08.990,0:05:13.550 right like first you have monopoly

0:05:10.640,0:05:15.770 issues like if I'm the only person

0:05:13.550,0:05:18.080 selling wine bottles then I might want

0:05:15.770,0:05:19.580 to sell them at a yeah and a higher

0:05:18.080,0:05:22.420 price than you'd be willing to accept

0:05:19.580,0:05:24.920 because I want to extract more value and

0:05:22.420,0:05:27.200 sometimes the things that matter most to

0:05:24.920,0:05:29.360 society aren't things that we can

0:05:27.200,0:05:31.340 transfer between people from one person

0:05:29.360,0:05:33.230 to another like wine bottles but like

0:05:31.340,0:05:35.540 public goods and like the biggest public

0:05:33.230,0:05:39.170 good of all is sort of is the idea right

0:05:35.540,0:05:40.820 and an idea well if I have an idea and I

0:05:39.170,0:05:45.230 give you the idea I still have the idea

0:05:40.820,0:05:47.240 so it's something that once you release

0:05:45.230,0:05:49.070 it it's out there and there isn't this

0:05:47.240,0:05:50.750 kind of property of that so you know

0:05:49.070,0:05:54.470 should we just pause just briefly to

0:05:50.750,0:05:56.450 talk about what a public good is yeah so

0:05:54.470,0:05:58.220 a public good is technically defined

0:05:56.450,0:06:01.250 within economics many people have an

0:05:58.220,0:06:03.490 intuitive idea as something which is as

0:06:01.250,0:06:05.830 you're stating has this property of

0:06:03.490,0:06:09.020 inexhaustibility mm-hm

0:06:05.830,0:06:10.130 and then the other attribute would be

0:06:09.020,0:06:12.920 excludability

0:06:10.130,0:06:14.360 which is non excludability formal sorry

0:06:12.920,0:06:17.180 nuts non excludability

0:06:14.360,0:06:20.630 sorry the the attribute of excludability

0:06:17.180,0:06:24.910 and is used to define a public good so

0:06:20.630,0:06:27.620 if something is inexhaustible and in

0:06:24.910,0:06:30.520 excludable then it has this weird

0:06:27.620,0:06:33.260 property that even hardline economists

0:06:30.520,0:06:35.540 would agree that the market may fail to

0:06:33.260,0:06:39.110 price in fact will fail to price the

0:06:35.540,0:06:39.409 value to society of that object so there

0:06:39.110,0:06:42.169 is an

0:06:39.409,0:06:44.269 mission within economics that there are

0:06:42.169,0:06:49.519 zones of failure right

0:06:44.269,0:06:52.580 well I guess the kind of the big kind of

0:06:49.519,0:06:54.409 rethinking that needs to happen is that

0:06:52.580,0:06:56.719 there is a long been this kind of

0:06:54.409,0:06:58.429 site-geist to that private goods like

0:06:56.719,0:07:00.050 things that I have and if I give it to

0:06:58.429,0:07:01.819 you I don't have it and you have it are

0:07:00.050,0:07:04.729 the norm and public goods are a rare

0:07:01.819,0:07:06.409 exception but like really public goods

0:07:04.729,0:07:08.149 are pretty darn important right like if

0:07:06.409,0:07:11.179 we didn't have public goods then we'd be

0:07:08.149,0:07:12.829 a trading sticks and B and Bear pelts

0:07:11.179,0:07:15.379 and we basically still be cavemen like

0:07:12.829,0:07:18.519 they're basically the like an army would

0:07:15.379,0:07:20.689 be a public yeah yeah and or me well

0:07:18.519,0:07:23.539 armies are interesting cuz there are

0:07:20.689,0:07:25.279 kind of to us like in a medium scale

0:07:23.539,0:07:26.959 context or a public good and in the

0:07:25.279,0:07:28.519 large-scale context or a public bad

0:07:26.959,0:07:30.469 because if everyone's army is we're

0:07:28.519,0:07:31.729 forced to be cut down by a factor of 10

0:07:30.469,0:07:34.579 like we'd all be better off

0:07:31.729,0:07:36.259 so economics is like really subtle that

0:07:34.579,0:07:40.579 way especially once you have kind of two

0:07:36.259,0:07:42.379 layers of scale I'd play sure now one

0:07:40.579,0:07:45.050 thing that I worry a lot about that

0:07:42.379,0:07:48.919 almost nobody seems to join me in is

0:07:45.050,0:07:51.889 that in our mutual world I don't know

0:07:48.919,0:07:54.769 what to call it of people who are

0:07:51.889,0:07:57.019 experimenting with what I would say the

0:07:54.769,0:08:00.199 mainstream would consider far out ideas

0:07:57.019,0:08:03.649 like radical life extension crypto

0:08:00.199,0:08:06.019 currencies is a you know potentially

0:08:03.649,0:08:08.539 being rival risks with sovereign

0:08:06.019,0:08:11.869 currencies but in our world we talk a

0:08:08.539,0:08:14.239 lot about the abundance economy in a

0:08:11.869,0:08:18.110 world of abundance and I'm terrified of

0:08:14.239,0:08:20.599 a world of abundance because one of the

0:08:18.110,0:08:23.629 properties that software has had is that

0:08:20.599,0:08:25.729 it has replaced physical goods and

0:08:23.629,0:08:30.649 services which have these attributes

0:08:25.729,0:08:33.620 they are not public with small files and

0:08:30.649,0:08:36.649 when a small file is not encrypted it

0:08:33.620,0:08:40.659 has the attributes of a public good and

0:08:36.649,0:08:44.480 therefore value and price can can castle

0:08:40.659,0:08:46.850 that's terrifying because then this

0:08:44.480,0:08:49.370 weird thing of markets which allows us

0:08:46.850,0:08:51.559 respite from dictatorship in somebody

0:08:49.370,0:08:52.970 directing our activities and allows us

0:08:51.559,0:08:55.339 to self-direct goes

0:08:52.970,0:08:58.069 away because things can't be priced

0:08:55.339,0:09:00.379 accurately are you do you have any does

0:08:58.069,0:09:03.769 that have any purchase on your thinking

0:09:00.379,0:09:05.779 yeah so and I think give definitely you

0:09:03.769,0:09:08.060 kind of struck at a very important point

0:09:05.779,0:09:11.149 though I think and if my own framing of

0:09:08.060,0:09:14.449 the point is slightly different no I

0:09:11.149,0:09:16.819 think like first of all like you start

0:09:14.449,0:09:18.680 off by think by realizing that kind of

0:09:16.819,0:09:20.149 private property and things is not

0:09:18.680,0:09:23.029 something that fell out of the sky it's

0:09:20.149,0:09:26.000 a social technology right it's that we

0:09:23.029,0:09:30.560 have these kind of norms that basically

0:09:26.000,0:09:34.100 say oh you kid we will create this kind

0:09:30.560,0:09:35.930 of mapping from objects to people and if

0:09:34.100,0:09:37.519 an object as maps to you then you're

0:09:35.930,0:09:38.810 allowed to do basically whatever the

0:09:37.519,0:09:40.550 hell you want with it and other people

0:09:38.810,0:09:41.060 cannot do anything with it without your

0:09:40.550,0:09:44.980 permission

0:09:41.060,0:09:47.240 and if that concept did not exist then

0:09:44.980,0:09:50.149 physical objects would be public goods

0:09:47.240,0:09:51.829 right because like if there's a klein

0:09:50.149,0:09:53.600 bottle over here the Quine bottle would

0:09:51.829,0:09:56.629 be there but like really anyone could

0:09:53.600,0:09:58.759 take it and if you produce wine bottles

0:09:56.629,0:10:00.230 then like you're not producing something

0:09:58.759,0:10:01.699 for yourself you're producing something

0:10:00.230,0:10:04.180 for pretty much different the first

0:10:01.699,0:10:07.370 person who comes along and grabs it and

0:10:04.180,0:10:10.370 so property rights right are this kind

0:10:07.370,0:10:14.000 of social technology that helps make a

0:10:10.370,0:10:15.410 private good economy is tractable and we

0:10:14.000,0:10:17.149 could consider making social

0:10:15.410,0:10:18.769 technologies to make public great

0:10:17.149,0:10:21.309 economies tractable right like the

0:10:18.769,0:10:24.079 existence of public goods by itself is

0:10:21.309,0:10:26.360 and it's not good or bad like arguably

0:10:24.079,0:10:28.040 it's even good because it means that

0:10:26.360,0:10:30.649 people can't cooperate with each other

0:10:28.040,0:10:33.620 on such large scales the bad thing is

0:10:30.649,0:10:35.120 that we don't really have good tools for

0:10:33.620,0:10:37.819 handling it and specifically we don't

0:10:35.120,0:10:42.620 have good tools for handling yet that

0:10:37.819,0:10:45.410 managed to simultaneously avoid both not

0:10:42.620,0:10:48.199 giving good results and like basically

0:10:45.410,0:10:51.230 being centralized in dictatorial and so

0:10:48.199,0:10:53.389 this is where my interest in radical

0:10:51.230,0:10:55.160 exchange comes in so this was this a

0:10:53.389,0:10:57.949 movement that was started by gone while

0:10:55.160,0:11:00.889 a couple of years ago when he wrote this

0:10:57.949,0:11:02.630 a radical markets book and he advanced

0:11:00.889,0:11:04.639 some of his proposals like harberger

0:11:02.630,0:11:05.860 taxes and a quadratic voting were the

0:11:04.639,0:11:09.670 ones that

0:11:05.860,0:11:12.579 and of the most popular and the and of

0:11:09.670,0:11:15.750 the core and if idea behind the ideas

0:11:12.579,0:11:18.160 basically as like let's creates

0:11:15.750,0:11:21.279 structures of kind of norms and

0:11:18.160,0:11:22.690 incentives that try to have the best

0:11:21.279,0:11:27.339 properties that we can get out of

0:11:22.690,0:11:30.010 markets but do you do so without like

0:11:27.339,0:11:32.200 basically economically breaking in the

0:11:30.010,0:11:34.839 way that we know and if existing

0:11:32.200,0:11:36.730 property right systems do once you enter

0:11:34.839,0:11:38.350 a world where none of everything that

0:11:36.730,0:11:40.839 you build just inherently affects

0:11:38.350,0:11:42.670 millions of people well this is this is

0:11:40.839,0:11:45.760 an interesting perspective you of course

0:11:42.670,0:11:48.490 are famous for implementing this

0:11:45.760,0:11:50.709 aetherium protocol but before we ever

0:11:48.490,0:11:53.829 get to computer protocols there are sort

0:11:50.709,0:11:55.450 of legal and structural protocols that

0:11:53.829,0:11:57.820 we impose upon ourselves in the form of

0:11:55.450,0:12:01.570 government and markets that are

0:11:57.820,0:12:06.089 subordinate to government and there's a

0:12:01.570,0:12:09.390 weird way in which you may start a

0:12:06.089,0:12:12.610 process by which you write down rules

0:12:09.390,0:12:15.370 for how a society should function but

0:12:12.610,0:12:17.589 once those rules are written down you

0:12:15.370,0:12:19.930 may discover all sorts of unintended

0:12:17.589,0:12:23.110 properties of that rule set and there's

0:12:19.930,0:12:26.860 a real question can we actually unhook

0:12:23.110,0:12:32.290 ourselves from the killer app that is

0:12:26.860,0:12:34.209 capitalism or American democracy and if

0:12:32.290,0:12:39.279 we start to realize that that app is

0:12:34.209,0:12:41.470 running out of control I guess in for

0:12:39.279,0:12:44.230 and of myself as a enough social

0:12:41.470,0:12:46.029 technologist and I definitely don't

0:12:44.230,0:12:48.370 think that we should be kind of

0:12:46.029,0:12:51.550 overturning entire countries with the

0:12:48.370,0:12:53.459 new mechanisms overnight I think and I

0:12:51.550,0:12:58.360 was insinuating oh definitely I think

0:12:53.459,0:13:00.490 like that's figuring out how to kind of

0:12:58.360,0:13:02.500 solve like grand problems of humanity is

0:13:00.490,0:13:04.690 a long-term goal but I mean sure term

0:13:02.500,0:13:08.320 goals are there is definitely can make

0:13:04.690,0:13:11.610 better right so I and this is actually

0:13:08.320,0:13:13.870 part of why I find a cryptocurrency and

0:13:11.610,0:13:17.140 blockchains interesting because they are

0:13:13.870,0:13:18.810 in a lot of ways this ideal ground for

0:13:17.140,0:13:22.500 economic experimentation

0:13:18.810,0:13:26.310 different types great so I to give one

0:13:22.500,0:13:28.590 concrete example and in so one of the

0:13:26.310,0:13:30.360 ideas that go on while and myself have

0:13:28.590,0:13:33.050 come up with and are pushing forward is

0:13:30.360,0:13:36.510 something called quadratic funding and

0:13:33.050,0:13:39.779 the way that quadratic funding works is

0:13:36.510,0:13:41.970 roughly this right so you have a central

0:13:39.779,0:13:43.470 kind of pool of funding and you could

0:13:41.970,0:13:44.820 imagine this coming from a government

0:13:43.470,0:13:46.620 you could imagine this coming from

0:13:44.820,0:13:50.330 wealthy donors you could imagine it just

0:13:46.620,0:13:52.740 in being put together by some like

0:13:50.330,0:13:55.860 crypto economic protocol it could come

0:13:52.740,0:13:58.770 from anywhere and then you allow people

0:13:55.860,0:14:01.410 to basically set up projects and you

0:13:58.770,0:14:03.180 what people say I have a project here is

0:14:01.410,0:14:05.700 something that I'm doing and if you like

0:14:03.180,0:14:07.980 this then you can donate to me and give

0:14:05.700,0:14:10.529 what people donate to projects and then

0:14:07.980,0:14:13.440 the core of the mechanism is basically

0:14:10.529,0:14:15.120 that if there is a projects and multiple

0:14:13.440,0:14:17.700 people donate to so there's some

0:14:15.120,0:14:20.880 projects you donate to it and someone

0:14:17.700,0:14:23.370 else donates to it as well then your

0:14:20.880,0:14:24.839 donation doesn't just benefit you it

0:14:23.370,0:14:26.339 also benefits the other person and the

0:14:24.839,0:14:28.740 other person's donation doesn't just

0:14:26.339,0:14:31.560 benefit them it also benefits you and so

0:14:28.740,0:14:33.180 to kind of counteract that kind of

0:14:31.560,0:14:35.700 market failure the mechanism basically

0:14:33.180,0:14:37.650 says well we're gonna multiply the

0:14:35.700,0:14:38.850 effect of your donation by two and

0:14:37.650,0:14:41.790 multiply the effect of the other

0:14:38.850,0:14:43.380 person's donation by two and so now both

0:14:41.790,0:14:45.510 of your incentives are kind of aligned

0:14:43.380,0:14:47.430 with the whole and you extend this

0:14:45.510,0:14:48.990 mechanism so instead of supporting two

0:14:47.430,0:14:51.150 people it supports an arbitrary number

0:14:48.990,0:14:53.430 of people and you kind of calculate

0:14:51.150,0:14:57.630 these subsidies across all possible

0:14:53.430,0:14:59.370 pairs of people and what you get is this

0:14:57.630,0:15:00.930 formula that basically says you let

0:14:59.370,0:15:02.820 people donate to different projects you

0:15:00.930,0:15:04.890 look at how many people donated and how

0:15:02.820,0:15:06.870 much money you've donated and based on

0:15:04.890,0:15:09.330 this from the central pool of funding

0:15:06.870,0:15:11.880 you give this extra subsidy and so it

0:15:09.330,0:15:16.650 basically is like a market for public

0:15:11.880,0:15:18.480 goods right and in the etherium

0:15:16.650,0:15:20.190 ecosystem there is something called that

0:15:18.480,0:15:22.440 get coin grants where we've basically

0:15:20.190,0:15:25.589 started like trying to use this

0:15:22.440,0:15:27.510 mechanism to fund public goods inside

0:15:25.589,0:15:30.209 the etherium ecosystem right so this

0:15:27.510,0:15:32.670 could be implementations of the etherium

0:15:30.209,0:15:34.320 protocol it could be scaling solutions

0:15:32.670,0:15:37.530 could be wallets it could be educational

0:15:34.320,0:15:39.830 resources and we've had a and of tests

0:15:37.530,0:15:42.120 around recently with about and if

0:15:39.830,0:15:44.340 $200,000 in this central matching pool

0:15:42.120,0:15:47.010 and it recently finished and you can go

0:15:44.340,0:15:49.410 to a get coin dot Co slash grants to see

0:15:47.010,0:15:51.210 the results and we got contributions

0:15:49.410,0:15:52.890 from hundreds of people and the results

0:15:51.210,0:15:56.750 a gave were actually pretty reasonable

0:15:52.890,0:16:00.240 so in tests yeah and and so I I think

0:15:56.750,0:16:03.360 cerium could have a lot of value is and

0:16:00.240,0:16:05.150 just being a test net in bed for and

0:16:03.360,0:16:07.980 decentralized governance and

0:16:05.150,0:16:10.200 decentralized public good funding

0:16:07.980,0:16:12.360 infrastructure of this kind well I think

0:16:10.200,0:16:13.860 that that's fascinating I guess one of

0:16:12.360,0:16:16.620 the ways in which I would understand

0:16:13.860,0:16:18.570 that is you know when my wife who's an

0:16:16.620,0:16:21.150 economist and I talk about this stuff we

0:16:18.570,0:16:23.250 often talk about a market democracy has

0:16:21.150,0:16:25.230 these two voting systems one is one

0:16:23.250,0:16:25.980 dollar one vote and the other is one

0:16:25.230,0:16:27.480 person one vote

0:16:25.980,0:16:30.530 theoretically anyway even if that's

0:16:27.480,0:16:33.030 honor only in the debris I and like

0:16:30.530,0:16:35.040 liberal democracy does this horrible

0:16:33.030,0:16:36.570 thing of like treating these s opposite

0:16:35.040,0:16:37.920 poles where something is either one or

0:16:36.570,0:16:39.270 the other and they're and they're often

0:16:37.920,0:16:41.370 fighting each other one really

0:16:39.270,0:16:41.700 everything's a spectrum and I like that

0:16:41.370,0:16:43.470 a lot

0:16:41.700,0:16:45.870 I mean an another thing that we've been

0:16:43.470,0:16:48.410 discussing recently and this again is

0:16:45.870,0:16:51.510 sort of drink with with Pia Milani is

0:16:48.410,0:16:54.060 thinking about the Chicago approximation

0:16:51.510,0:16:56.430 you've got some reality that's

0:16:54.060,0:16:59.220 incredibly nonlinear and complicated and

0:16:56.430,0:17:01.110 then weirdly yeah in a one of these

0:16:59.220,0:17:03.990 famous instances where the map is not

0:17:01.110,0:17:07.310 the territory you take this incredibly

0:17:03.990,0:17:09.210 simplified world where agents have this

0:17:07.310,0:17:10.830 properties you can't even believe you

0:17:09.210,0:17:12.990 would ascribe to a human being where you

0:17:10.830,0:17:16.080 thought Homo economicus and you it's

0:17:12.990,0:17:18.270 perfectly rational and it it has all of

0:17:16.080,0:17:20.610 these characteristics like an automaton

0:17:18.270,0:17:24.060 that only makes rational decisions and

0:17:20.610,0:17:26.280 then you impose that like through law

0:17:24.060,0:17:29.550 and economics programs and suddenly

0:17:26.280,0:17:32.280 you've distorted your society by taking

0:17:29.550,0:17:34.530 the map as the territory so seriously

0:17:32.280,0:17:38.720 that you don't realize that you're

0:17:34.530,0:17:44.040 destroying something and distorting yeah

0:17:38.720,0:17:46.500 no that's definitely and I think it's a

0:17:44.040,0:17:49.140 social it's one approximation

0:17:46.500,0:17:50.820 and you mean we're never going to have

0:17:49.140,0:17:52.860 approximations that are perfect because

0:17:50.820,0:17:54.210 the world is just so we're glad to hear

0:17:52.860,0:17:58.169 that yeah and the world is just so

0:17:54.210,0:18:01.140 complicated and so even rapidly changing

0:17:58.169,0:18:03.419 in a 21st century like aprox in all

0:18:01.140,0:18:05.070 approximations are bullshit but like you

0:18:03.419,0:18:06.480 have to find a couple of good ones that

0:18:05.070,0:18:07.980 work reasonably well and make progress

0:18:06.480,0:18:09.419 for us and I think that one of the

0:18:07.980,0:18:11.760 things that's unfairly done to

0:18:09.419,0:18:13.830 cryptocurrencies is that we expect them

0:18:11.760,0:18:16.919 to solve all of the problems that

0:18:13.830,0:18:19.110 already cropped up yes in our forms of

0:18:16.919,0:18:21.870 governance and our forms of currency in

0:18:19.110,0:18:24.559 exchange in court systems and that what

0:18:21.870,0:18:27.090 we should be asking of them is to be

0:18:24.559,0:18:30.570 improvements or to augment mm-hmm

0:18:27.090,0:18:34.470 already existing systems now one of the

0:18:30.570,0:18:37.380 odd things about governance is we could

0:18:34.470,0:18:41.400 view you as in some sense starting a

0:18:37.380,0:18:44.940 rival virtual country that has a legal

0:18:41.400,0:18:46.919 system because the etherium I don't know

0:18:44.940,0:18:48.390 what to call it Network platform

0:18:46.919,0:18:50.610 protocol

0:18:48.390,0:18:52.710 yeah rules coins and it has the right to

0:18:50.610,0:18:55.409 reassign those coins and not only that

0:18:52.710,0:18:56.580 but it has a stand-in for the legal

0:18:55.409,0:19:03.059 system in the form of what are called

0:18:56.580,0:19:06.090 smart contracts mmm-hmm normally a we

0:19:03.059,0:19:08.400 have this concept in governance I guess

0:19:06.090,0:19:10.559 it goes back to Weber that a government

0:19:08.400,0:19:12.960 is supposed to be a monopoly on violence

0:19:10.559,0:19:15.570 which is an odd definition that you

0:19:12.960,0:19:18.330 recover the concept of government from

0:19:15.570,0:19:21.059 monopolizing violence and then you you

0:19:18.330,0:19:23.240 sort of unearth and and unpack all of

0:19:21.059,0:19:25.980 the features of government from that one

0:19:23.240,0:19:28.890 generating function in some sense a

0:19:25.980,0:19:31.890 cryptocurrency and smart contracts

0:19:28.890,0:19:35.220 derive from math rather than violence

0:19:31.890,0:19:37.799 they derive from math and social

0:19:35.220,0:19:39.630 consensus right I love the fact that I

0:19:37.799,0:19:41.549 was gonna get to that but I know I guess

0:19:39.630,0:19:43.440 this is important right because like for

0:19:41.549,0:19:45.299 example you know you have the Bitcoin

0:19:43.440,0:19:47.130 blockchain and then you have the

0:19:45.299,0:19:49.500 litecoin blockchain which operates under

0:19:47.130,0:19:51.090 ik almost exactly the set at the same

0:19:49.500,0:19:53.730 set of rules as the Bitcoin blockchain

0:19:51.090,0:19:55.500 and yet the Bitcoin blockchain has a

0:19:53.730,0:19:56.760 hundred million dollar market cap and

0:19:55.500,0:19:58.289 the white coin blockchain has a three

0:19:56.760,0:20:00.510 billion dollar market cap or something

0:19:58.289,0:20:04.110 like that and much less usage so

0:20:00.510,0:20:06.750 like blog Chin's are definitely not just

0:20:04.110,0:20:08.730 math and technology math and technology

0:20:06.750,0:20:10.560 are the substrate and maybe in the same

0:20:08.730,0:20:12.090 way that the military is like the

0:20:10.560,0:20:15.600 substrate of keeping a country together

0:20:12.090,0:20:18.600 but they're including police force yeah

0:20:15.600,0:20:19.740 exactly but like they're the substrate

0:20:18.600,0:20:22.230 but they're not the country right the

0:20:19.740,0:20:25.020 country is the community well and this

0:20:22.230,0:20:28.620 goes to what I would love to get into

0:20:25.020,0:20:31.230 you with love to get into with you which

0:20:28.620,0:20:34.260 is the way in which different utopian

0:20:31.230,0:20:37.230 dreams collide in the space of

0:20:34.260,0:20:40.110 cryptocurrencies so for example there

0:20:37.230,0:20:42.810 are some dreams that may sound more like

0:20:40.110,0:20:44.880 what I assume you may be active in the

0:20:42.810,0:20:46.710 effective altruism community is that a

0:20:44.880,0:20:48.300 possibility yeah

0:20:46.710,0:20:51.720 which tries to figure how to do the most

0:20:48.300,0:20:55.110 good to do good efficiently rather than

0:20:51.720,0:20:57.750 sanctimoniously there are other people

0:20:55.110,0:21:00.420 who have this idea of I just want to

0:20:57.750,0:21:01.950 retreat from other human beings and I

0:21:00.420,0:21:04.080 want to be left alone it want to be

0:21:01.950,0:21:06.900 taxed I don't to be told what to do very

0:21:04.080,0:21:08.550 strong libertarian perspective sometimes

0:21:06.900,0:21:10.440 those people are the same people there's

0:21:08.550,0:21:12.000 two kinds of libertarians there's well

0:21:10.440,0:21:14.100 there's many ways that's what Albertans

0:21:12.000,0:21:15.750 is the two kinds but like there's the

0:21:14.100,0:21:17.640 leave me alone type and then there's the

0:21:15.750,0:21:21.720 kind of conquer the world type right the

0:21:17.640,0:21:24.330 kind that kind of relishes seeing fiat

0:21:21.720,0:21:28.620 currencies be destroyed and replaced by

0:21:24.330,0:21:32.070 Bitcoin and it's kind of you know

0:21:28.620,0:21:35.790 creating a thousand a year kind of reign

0:21:32.070,0:21:40.020 of sound money that in I mean I

0:21:35.790,0:21:42.000 generally have this kind of instincts

0:21:40.020,0:21:43.890 that like when someone says that like we

0:21:42.000,0:21:45.630 should impose a lot of short-term

0:21:43.890,0:21:47.160 disruption and harm on the entire world

0:21:45.630,0:21:48.240 for the sake of some nebulous a long

0:21:47.160,0:21:51.000 term gain that's something to be

0:21:48.240,0:21:53.400 skeptical of but so I'm not gonna rely

0:21:51.000,0:21:55.530 on the word skeptical mmm-hmm you're

0:21:53.400,0:21:59.010 using an extreme form of understatement

0:21:55.530,0:22:02.730 yeah yeah and so I mean I'm definitely

0:21:59.010,0:22:04.910 not in in the camp that had of actively

0:22:02.730,0:22:09.060 relishes like fiat currency is being

0:22:04.910,0:22:11.250 destroyed but meanders and I definitely

0:22:09.060,0:22:13.530 don't think that all bitcoiners do it

0:22:11.250,0:22:17.010 like there is some that do see it as

0:22:13.530,0:22:18.840 and of a something that's supposed to

0:22:17.010,0:22:21.180 coexist and something that's supposed to

0:22:18.840,0:22:22.680 provide a check and balance against the

0:22:21.180,0:22:25.770 government's monopoly on issuing money

0:22:22.680,0:22:27.240 without replacing it entirely so you

0:22:25.770,0:22:28.680 know there are there's definitely enough

0:22:27.240,0:22:31.200 different visions within individual

0:22:28.680,0:22:34.230 communities there's different visions

0:22:31.200,0:22:36.570 between different communities you know

0:22:34.230,0:22:38.610 in it there's it's not just visions

0:22:36.570,0:22:40.080 about what cryptocurrencies should do to

0:22:38.610,0:22:42.600 the world it's also in your visions

0:22:40.080,0:22:44.220 about like what how cryptocurrencies

0:22:42.600,0:22:47.370 should work internally and what they

0:22:44.220,0:22:50.060 should do to each other so like that in

0:22:47.370,0:22:52.830 that sense I guess like a

0:22:50.060,0:22:54.780 cryptocurrencies are interesting in in

0:22:52.830,0:22:56.250 ball chains not just because of like

0:22:54.780,0:22:58.830 what they can do in the world but also

0:22:56.250,0:23:01.470 just as this and if microcosm of the

0:22:58.830,0:23:03.630 world all into themselves I mean like we

0:23:01.470,0:23:06.060 talked about country virtual countries

0:23:03.630,0:23:07.440 but you know there there's many virtual

0:23:06.060,0:23:09.240 countries now there's over fourteen

0:23:07.440,0:23:12.930 hundred on coin market cap and they have

0:23:09.240,0:23:16.050 some analog of you do think of them as

0:23:12.930,0:23:18.950 virtual countries it's singing all

0:23:16.050,0:23:21.210 models are bullshit but some are useful

0:23:18.950,0:23:28.110 but to the extent of the country is a

0:23:21.210,0:23:32.240 sensible thing to yes yeah yeah yeah so

0:23:28.110,0:23:38.700 in that world where we're dealing with

0:23:32.240,0:23:41.490 often very radical individualism and a

0:23:38.700,0:23:44.880 very strong sense that there is

0:23:41.490,0:23:48.060 something wrong with the coercive aspect

0:23:44.880,0:23:51.350 of a government do you worry that

0:23:48.060,0:23:57.290 something that you have given birth to

0:23:51.350,0:24:02.240 may start to behave in very different

0:23:57.290,0:24:06.270 ways than you would ever want definitely

0:24:02.240,0:24:07.860 probably the closest that we've seen to

0:24:06.270,0:24:10.410 things like this happening already would

0:24:07.860,0:24:14.460 be the the initial coin offering a boom

0:24:10.410,0:24:16.950 in the 2017 and 2018 and like basically

0:24:14.460,0:24:19.020 if what happens and there was that

0:24:16.950,0:24:21.870 people saw that cryptocurrencies are

0:24:19.020,0:24:23.580 something that could potentially had a

0:24:21.870,0:24:27.450 very high value and so people started

0:24:23.580,0:24:29.460 saying oh like I'm raising money

0:24:27.450,0:24:31.200 anyone come and give me fifty million

0:24:29.460,0:24:32.669 dollars and I'm gonna build a

0:24:31.200,0:24:34.200 cryptocurrency and I'm gonna make it

0:24:32.669,0:24:36.600 great and I'll turn your 50 million

0:24:34.200,0:24:43.440 dollars into 50 billion going guaranteed

0:24:36.600,0:24:45.149 and this like and like it's complicated

0:24:43.440,0:24:47.370 right because I mean on the one hand

0:24:45.149,0:24:48.929 like the possibility of a kind of

0:24:47.370,0:24:52.679 raising money and using it to fund

0:24:48.929,0:24:54.899 cryptocurrency development like it's it

0:24:52.679,0:24:56.610 did a lot of good right began like in

0:24:54.899,0:24:59.760 general like the open source community

0:24:56.610,0:25:01.889 it's and it kind of acutely suffers from

0:24:59.760,0:25:03.659 this have public goods challenge that we

0:25:01.889,0:25:06.600 talked about because an open source

0:25:03.659,0:25:09.299 software is a very public good and like

0:25:06.600,0:25:10.860 we saw some very public and if splats

0:25:09.299,0:25:13.529 involving open source software being

0:25:10.860,0:25:15.029 under maintains like the CloudFlare and

0:25:13.529,0:25:17.610 of issues a couple years back when it

0:25:15.029,0:25:19.320 turned out that's an open ssl library it

0:25:17.610,0:25:20.909 was like really really under maintained

0:25:19.320,0:25:23.130 despite billions of dollars of value

0:25:20.909,0:25:24.899 depending on it and with

0:25:23.130,0:25:26.100 cryptocurrencies suddenly you could make

0:25:24.899,0:25:28.799 things that are completely open-source

0:25:26.100,0:25:31.970 that through coins do have a funding

0:25:28.799,0:25:34.919 mechanism and like you know this has

0:25:31.970,0:25:36.179 massive massively accelerated the

0:25:34.919,0:25:38.250 development of many kinds of

0:25:36.179,0:25:40.740 cryptography zero-knowledge proofs and

0:25:38.250,0:25:42.750 peer-to-peer networking a lot of other

0:25:40.740,0:25:45.539 things but at this on the other hand

0:25:42.750,0:25:49.200 like it's also given rise to this kind

0:25:45.539,0:25:50.340 of speculation and in many cases the

0:25:49.200,0:25:53.490 projects turned out to be outright

0:25:50.340,0:25:55.470 fraudulent right but it's a really

0:25:53.490,0:25:57.419 delicious and weird situation I haven't

0:25:55.470,0:26:00.779 asked you about it yet but you're I

0:25:57.419,0:26:03.590 presume that your net worth crashed a

0:26:00.779,0:26:05.820 great deal we got run up and then came

0:26:03.590,0:26:10.039 came back yeah

0:26:05.820,0:26:17.429 and were you happy in any way about that

0:26:10.039,0:26:19.289 relieved relieved yeah so when the right

0:26:17.429,0:26:24.299 at the top of the big bubble like in

0:26:19.289,0:26:27.539 December 2017 when yeah good coin was

0:26:24.299,0:26:30.299 hitting 20,000 eath was hitting 1,400 I

0:26:27.539,0:26:32.880 mean I made this tweet and a series of

0:26:30.299,0:26:34.080 tweets and that and it became somewhat

0:26:32.880,0:26:36.419 famous one in the space where I

0:26:34.080,0:26:38.309 basically said the cryptocurrency space

0:26:36.419,0:26:41.040 has reached half a trillion dollars does

0:26:38.309,0:26:43.200 does it deserve it like do the thing

0:26:41.040,0:26:46.080 that it's actually accomplished like

0:26:43.200,0:26:49.020 hold a candle to the promises that my

0:26:46.080,0:26:51.450 market is ascribing to it and I mean the

0:26:49.020,0:26:54.630 subtext of my answer is not yet and that

0:26:51.450,0:26:58.620 was proven very right yeah I fairly

0:26:54.630,0:27:04.640 quickly and but you didn't short it did

0:26:58.620,0:27:07.410 you so the iana I did can you get and

0:27:04.640,0:27:09.780 get the etherium foundation to sell

0:27:07.410,0:27:11.520 about seventy thousand eath like

0:27:09.780,0:27:14.400 basically at the top and that's doubled

0:27:11.520,0:27:16.860 our runway now so there was one good

0:27:14.400,0:27:19.380 decision that had a land that had a lot

0:27:16.860,0:27:25.200 of impact but it did not short I should

0:27:19.380,0:27:29.540 say that I was weirdly somewhat relieved

0:27:25.200,0:27:34.260 as well I view that the innovation of

0:27:29.540,0:27:37.290 decentralized transactions and the bid

0:27:34.260,0:27:39.570 and you know it's hard for me to say

0:27:37.290,0:27:41.490 because I actually I'm convinced that

0:27:39.570,0:27:43.230 the blockchain should be an intermediate

0:27:41.490,0:27:46.500 state and should not be the permanent

0:27:43.230,0:27:50.190 version of decentralized computing angry

0:27:46.500,0:27:52.760 okay but I thought that that was such an

0:27:50.190,0:27:57.900 amazing innovation that you could have a

0:27:52.760,0:28:00.390 locally enforced mechanism without a

0:27:57.900,0:28:03.060 centralized Authority but with a global

0:28:00.390,0:28:08.610 ledger unfair which which I see if it is

0:28:03.060,0:28:10.710 a point of intellectual failure that in

0:28:08.610,0:28:12.990 some sense you're mirroring the

0:28:10.710,0:28:17.370 transactions of the physical world so

0:28:12.990,0:28:20.880 for example for those listening at home

0:28:17.370,0:28:23.430 who don't have a visual here Vitalik has

0:28:20.880,0:28:25.650 several glass bottles next to him were

0:28:23.430,0:28:29.760 he to give one to me which he shouldn't

0:28:25.650,0:28:31.980 do right now but the idea would be that

0:28:29.760,0:28:35.220 it would no longer be in his space and

0:28:31.980,0:28:40.640 it would be in mine and that property of

0:28:35.220,0:28:43.410 Adams has been somewhat mirrored in

0:28:40.640,0:28:46.770 Bitcoin and blockchain and aetherium

0:28:43.410,0:28:49.200 transactions I mean this is like the

0:28:46.770,0:28:51.600 concept of like money as a thing right

0:28:49.200,0:28:53.910 the and if the scarcity of the 21

0:28:51.600,0:28:54.870 million limit if I give you five coins I

0:28:53.910,0:28:57.240 have five of us and you

0:28:54.870,0:28:58.710 five more right and so the idea is that

0:28:57.240,0:29:02.370 it's a what you're doing is you're

0:28:58.710,0:29:04.680 porting conservation laws into from the

0:29:02.370,0:29:09.450 physical layer into the logical layer

0:29:04.680,0:29:11.790 right and yeah and I guess and if to

0:29:09.450,0:29:13.710 some extent kind of reflects the kind of

0:29:11.790,0:29:16.920 very deeply enough Austrian economic

0:29:13.710,0:29:19.700 libertarian and origins of the the space

0:29:16.920,0:29:24.510 way better back in the end of 2009 to

0:29:19.700,0:29:27.690 2013 days I mean creating like digital

0:29:24.510,0:29:29.250 gold was pretty much the Fukien Digital

0:29:27.690,0:29:32.580 payment system was the first use case

0:29:29.250,0:29:34.559 but and I definitely think that like we

0:29:32.580,0:29:36.120 can and should be thinking about point

0:29:34.559,0:29:38.460 systems that work in ways other than

0:29:36.120,0:29:41.030 money well I agree with that and I also

0:29:38.460,0:29:44.040 think that it isn't digital gold because

0:29:41.030,0:29:46.620 as the saying goes you know gold or

0:29:44.040,0:29:49.260 money has no stench and that the

0:29:46.620,0:29:51.480 blockchain is this bizarre difference

0:29:49.260,0:29:55.230 with the physical world and that it is a

0:29:51.480,0:29:58.320 distributed ledger that may be somewhat

0:29:55.230,0:30:01.260 anonymous but it still gives the history

0:29:58.320,0:30:05.750 like if I hand you a dollar and and you

0:30:01.260,0:30:09.090 don't have access to any particular

0:30:05.750,0:30:11.160 means of analyzing whose DNA is on that

0:30:09.090,0:30:14.790 dollar you have no idea where it's been

0:30:11.160,0:30:17.040 and these that is not that is violated

0:30:14.790,0:30:20.070 by the current block chain type

0:30:17.040,0:30:22.350 implementations yes so it isn't a

0:30:20.070,0:30:25.770 complete port of the physical world into

0:30:22.350,0:30:27.690 a digital but it is a an astounding one

0:30:25.770,0:30:30.240 and I guess I get very frustrated with

0:30:27.690,0:30:32.220 the economics questions like well what's

0:30:30.240,0:30:34.340 good what's it good for where's the

0:30:32.220,0:30:37.350 killer app I mean we have all of

0:30:34.340,0:30:40.740 whatever's left of human civilization to

0:30:37.350,0:30:42.929 figure out what this thing is meant to

0:30:40.740,0:30:44.490 do you know and I'm not very worried

0:30:42.929,0:30:46.530 that we were not going to figure it out

0:30:44.490,0:30:48.360 I mean we're going to figure it out

0:30:46.530,0:30:49.860 sooner or later because a conservation

0:30:48.360,0:30:53.429 law and digital space is just too

0:30:49.860,0:30:56.100 valuable is that wrong are you worried

0:30:53.429,0:30:58.170 at all about the search for like I I

0:30:56.100,0:30:59.640 just hate this question you know where's

0:30:58.170,0:31:02.760 that where's the killer app and I'm

0:30:59.640,0:31:05.400 thinking chill out man this is an

0:31:02.760,0:31:08.130 astounding intellectual achievement what

0:31:05.400,0:31:11.700 is that wrong yeah and I say

0:31:08.130,0:31:14.669 there's definitely a and a long time to

0:31:11.700,0:31:16.530 go and they think you know the apps will

0:31:14.669,0:31:18.500 come you know there's the ones that are

0:31:16.530,0:31:21.630 coming right now are basically a kind of

0:31:18.500,0:31:24.900 financial but I think I mean that's kind

0:31:21.630,0:31:26.760 of true just in part because the finance

0:31:24.900,0:31:28.950 the existing financial system is just

0:31:26.760,0:31:31.830 like so ready and waiting there to be

0:31:28.950,0:31:34.860 disrupted event in like in the long term

0:31:31.830,0:31:42.030 like there's there's it's disrupted and

0:31:34.860,0:31:43.470 polite term for destroyed you choose but

0:31:42.030,0:31:46.470 I mean there's something interesting

0:31:43.470,0:31:53.210 here you're 25 years old every bit of

0:31:46.470,0:31:58.289 your adult life is post 2008 mm-hmm and

0:31:53.210,0:32:01.559 to be 25 years old and in charge of a

0:31:58.289,0:32:03.270 financial ecosystem to the extent that

0:32:01.559,0:32:05.400 anyone is in charge of etherium and I

0:32:03.270,0:32:07.350 don't want to claim that you are sitting

0:32:05.400,0:32:11.820 there running and making all these

0:32:07.350,0:32:14.850 decisions that's an astounding thing

0:32:11.820,0:32:19.429 that that this has fallen to somebody

0:32:14.850,0:32:23.250 who whose adult life has post the crash

0:32:19.429,0:32:25.230 hmm do you think about that at all that

0:32:23.250,0:32:28.020 you don't have the same associations the

0:32:25.230,0:32:30.690 rest of us do with markets when they

0:32:28.020,0:32:32.340 were claimed to be working well like

0:32:30.690,0:32:34.380 during the during the era of the Great

0:32:32.340,0:32:39.840 Moderation supposedly when volatility

0:32:34.380,0:32:42.210 was banished yeah 17:12 right so one

0:32:39.840,0:32:44.010 thing that I kind of when we realized

0:32:42.210,0:32:46.289 the recently that I found interesting is

0:32:44.010,0:32:48.030 that there like there aren't kind of two

0:32:46.289,0:32:51.470 tribes here there's to be tribes right

0:32:48.030,0:32:56.340 and what I mean by this is that there's

0:32:51.470,0:32:59.039 the tribe that says markets are great

0:32:56.340,0:33:01.169 and there's the tribe that says markets

0:32:59.039,0:33:02.280 are bad and like we should move to more

0:33:01.169,0:33:05.429 things don't look like political

0:33:02.280,0:33:08.100 mechanisms but then if you look at kind

0:33:05.429,0:33:10.190 of the zeitgeist that's kind of fairly

0:33:08.100,0:33:12.210 popular in the cryptocurrencies space

0:33:10.190,0:33:16.070 definitely even still now to a big

0:33:12.210,0:33:19.559 extent it's that markets are great but

0:33:16.070,0:33:22.020 the thing that existed and exists like

0:33:19.559,0:33:26.010 isn't markets and

0:33:22.020,0:33:28.260 so yes like there's people who are pro

0:33:26.010,0:33:29.910 market and who see ahead of the existing

0:33:28.260,0:33:31.560 financial system as being that and

0:33:29.910,0:33:33.420 there's people who are pro market at

0:33:31.560,0:33:35.640 receive the existing financial system as

0:33:33.420,0:33:36.930 being like yet another one of the

0:33:35.640,0:33:39.660 perversions of that that needs to be

0:33:36.930,0:33:43.260 overcome well it's odd because I would

0:33:39.660,0:33:47.010 love to fix our democracy I'd love to

0:33:43.260,0:33:49.410 fix our markets but I am I have to say I

0:33:47.010,0:33:54.150 believe that I have grown up in a an

0:33:49.410,0:33:56.100 approximately 50 year bubble which the

0:33:54.150,0:34:00.770 Silent Generation and then the boomers

0:33:56.100,0:34:03.900 presided over and my own read is that

0:34:00.770,0:34:06.780 because of their inability to figure out

0:34:03.900,0:34:09.300 sufficient innovation to take over from

0:34:06.780,0:34:12.840 the previously innovative system that

0:34:09.300,0:34:15.360 the world of human expertise has been

0:34:12.840,0:34:17.790 almost completely contaminated by

0:34:15.360,0:34:21.270 special pleading and political economy

0:34:17.790,0:34:23.780 so that many of us who don't have a

0:34:21.270,0:34:28.620 particularly Austrian or libertarian

0:34:23.780,0:34:32.159 bent are just sick to death of being

0:34:28.620,0:34:34.010 lied to by people claim to be Nobel

0:34:32.159,0:34:37.679 laureates in economics yep

0:34:34.010,0:34:39.840 do you have any emotional connection to

0:34:37.679,0:34:42.860 you hmm

0:34:39.840,0:34:45.960 like I feel like I'm lied to about

0:34:42.860,0:34:47.370 almost almost you know the doctors are

0:34:45.960,0:34:48.390 lying the lawyers are lying the

0:34:47.370,0:34:52.010 accountants are lying

0:34:48.390,0:34:55.230 the extraction companies are lying and

0:34:52.010,0:34:57.510 it's not because of a million different

0:34:55.230,0:34:59.700 reasons it's because growth ran out and

0:34:57.510,0:35:03.000 our whole society is predicated on a

0:34:59.700,0:35:06.030 need for economic growth yeah no there's

0:35:03.000,0:35:07.710 definitely and of things that are that

0:35:06.030,0:35:10.320 have changed in us and assess them

0:35:07.710,0:35:11.490 that's just not keeping up and doesn't

0:35:10.320,0:35:16.130 and doesn't understand that there is

0:35:11.490,0:35:17.700 such a thing as keeping up and it's like

0:35:16.130,0:35:22.740 hmm

0:35:17.700,0:35:24.240 so like one thing that even Gwen talks

0:35:22.740,0:35:27.630 about this right what he talks about

0:35:24.240,0:35:31.400 kind of the mortgage markets has social

0:35:27.630,0:35:35.230 technology mentality versus the like

0:35:31.400,0:35:39.550 basically end of history mentality and I

0:35:35.230,0:35:42.730 like the way that I can and I definitely

0:35:39.550,0:35:44.680 saw this kind of zeitgeist 10 years ago

0:35:42.730,0:35:46.300 that said kind of even more broadly than

0:35:44.680,0:35:49.900 like markets versus other mechanisms

0:35:46.300,0:35:51.700 that's like things are 80% efficient and

0:35:49.900,0:35:52.240 lots of work to make them 95 percent

0:35:51.700,0:35:57.190 efficient

0:35:52.240,0:35:58.869 whereas the the thing that's really

0:35:57.190,0:35:59.980 going on is that things are 3 percent

0:35:58.869,0:36:02.080 efficient and we should work hard on

0:35:59.980,0:36:05.170 making them six percent efficient like

0:36:02.080,0:36:07.720 if you kind of move away from the narrow

0:36:05.170,0:36:08.859 context of like I'm I have something to

0:36:07.720,0:36:10.540 sell when you have something to buy

0:36:08.859,0:36:14.260 which is pretty well optimized already

0:36:10.540,0:36:15.820 then there's lots of these and very big

0:36:14.260,0:36:18.970 things that are happening that have just

0:36:15.820,0:36:23.320 completely been missed and in technology

0:36:18.970,0:36:25.180 and if Network effects and all and just

0:36:23.320,0:36:26.800 generally kind of migrating from atoms

0:36:25.180,0:36:31.180 to bits are definitely all a big part of

0:36:26.800,0:36:32.830 it so let's talk about something's a

0:36:31.180,0:36:35.800 little bit funny which is if you start

0:36:32.830,0:36:37.330 to replace government as we were talking

0:36:35.800,0:36:40.119 about it and you see it as a monopoly on

0:36:37.330,0:36:43.930 violence you notice that very often

0:36:40.119,0:36:46.480 there there's a very funny role played

0:36:43.930,0:36:48.340 by organized crime of course when we

0:36:46.480,0:36:50.770 think about organized crime we tend to

0:36:48.340,0:36:52.900 get emotionally excited by it for

0:36:50.770,0:36:56.080 whatever reason we make lots of movies

0:36:52.900,0:36:58.590 about it it occupies the mind is

0:36:56.080,0:37:01.480 something terrifying and alluring and

0:36:58.590,0:37:05.800 there's sort of two weird aspects to

0:37:01.480,0:37:09.550 organized crime one of which is violence

0:37:05.800,0:37:11.950 as a contract enforcement mechanism in

0:37:09.550,0:37:14.890 other words you're you're gambling so

0:37:11.950,0:37:16.420 you don't have access to the regular

0:37:14.890,0:37:20.290 court system now you have a gambling

0:37:16.420,0:37:26.320 debt and so just the way our government

0:37:20.290,0:37:28.330 would put you in jail if you you know

0:37:26.320,0:37:30.130 started doing things you couldn't

0:37:28.330,0:37:31.570 fulfill all of your obligations and you

0:37:30.130,0:37:34.990 were doing harm to lots of people and

0:37:31.570,0:37:37.540 you couldn't be stopped organized crime

0:37:34.990,0:37:40.270 has to do somebody can't maintain jails

0:37:37.540,0:37:42.700 you know so it can put the hurt on

0:37:40.270,0:37:45.220 somebody for means of contract

0:37:42.700,0:37:46.930 enforcement so it's it's not looking to

0:37:45.220,0:37:48.260 do violent things it's looking to run

0:37:46.930,0:37:49.910 illegal businesses

0:37:48.260,0:37:52.100 for which there's demand yeah and then

0:37:49.910,0:37:53.560 it has a problem of enforcement then

0:37:52.100,0:37:57.370 there's another part of it which is

0:37:53.560,0:37:59.930 violence as the product so for example

0:37:57.370,0:38:01.850 extortion be shame if anything were to

0:37:59.930,0:38:04.820 happen to this lovely business that

0:38:01.850,0:38:06.920 you're running is a veiled threat pay us

0:38:04.820,0:38:09.980 or we're gonna do harm to your business

0:38:06.920,0:38:12.340 or you know contract killings and the

0:38:09.980,0:38:15.110 like yeah are you worried that

0:38:12.340,0:38:18.140 effectively by introducing parallel

0:38:15.110,0:38:22.010 structures both in the form of currency

0:38:18.140,0:38:24.320 and in the form of contracts smart

0:38:22.010,0:38:27.590 contracts that are the cynic wanna and I

0:38:24.320,0:38:30.590 guess of the difference between Bitcoin

0:38:27.590,0:38:33.410 and aetherium right that the killer app

0:38:30.590,0:38:35.090 that is most likely to happen while the

0:38:33.410,0:38:37.880 technology is still clunky and

0:38:35.090,0:38:42.920 cumbersome and difficult is in the

0:38:37.880,0:38:46.340 parallel space that either you are going

0:38:42.920,0:38:49.430 to replace organized crime as a place to

0:38:46.340,0:38:52.130 do contractual business outside of the

0:38:49.430,0:38:54.890 normal scope which could be a benefit

0:38:52.130,0:38:56.870 because organized crime still exists and

0:38:54.890,0:38:58.880 is a bad thing because it uses violence

0:38:56.870,0:39:01.850 and you would use math and in place of

0:38:58.880,0:39:07.360 it or that it could actually be used to

0:39:01.850,0:39:09.530 facilitate violence by you know using

0:39:07.360,0:39:12.290 let's say prediction markets or

0:39:09.530,0:39:16.970 something else to induce people to

0:39:12.290,0:39:20.120 commit crimes where the committer the

0:39:16.970,0:39:21.800 committer of violence has unusual

0:39:20.120,0:39:23.120 information about where the violence

0:39:21.800,0:39:27.830 will be committed and therefore can

0:39:23.120,0:39:30.290 profit from it it's definitely a worry

0:39:27.830,0:39:31.670 that have I in make lots of people in

0:39:30.290,0:39:33.920 the crypt of space have had since the

0:39:31.670,0:39:36.530 beginning though I do feel like at least

0:39:33.920,0:39:38.090 so far I've been surprised like it feels

0:39:36.530,0:39:41.960 like a less avetis happens than we had

0:39:38.090,0:39:44.330 expected the thing now what do you what

0:39:41.960,0:39:47.750 accounts for the idea that something

0:39:44.330,0:39:51.250 that can be dreamt has mostly not

0:39:47.750,0:39:53.810 occurred yes I definitely have yeah

0:39:51.250,0:39:54.860 maybe it's a great thing about humans

0:39:53.810,0:39:56.330 that we didn't realize that we're not

0:39:54.860,0:39:57.800 nearly the horrible people we thought

0:39:56.330,0:39:59.750 and I definitely have a couple of

0:39:57.800,0:40:01.640 theories about this so one of those

0:39:59.750,0:40:07.519 theories is

0:40:01.640,0:40:10.849 like basically a lot of things that

0:40:07.519,0:40:12.769 people do and especially a lot of things

0:40:10.849,0:40:14.390 that people do in the InfoSphere because

0:40:12.769,0:40:15.710 like public goods are gonna have

0:40:14.390,0:40:18.730 chronically underfunded and all that

0:40:15.710,0:40:22.180 rely really heavily on goodwill and so

0:40:18.730,0:40:25.160 you know you have goodwill that if

0:40:22.180,0:40:27.289 someone if you pay someone to write some

0:40:25.160,0:40:29.809 piece piece of software for your website

0:40:27.289,0:40:31.880 it's not gonna include some bloggers go

0:40:29.809,0:40:33.829 yeah some bug that'll steal people's

0:40:31.880,0:40:37.730 money or tell the FBI where you are that

0:40:33.829,0:40:39.079 you if you create a system for the

0:40:37.730,0:40:42.470 enforcing agreements that they'll

0:40:39.079,0:40:45.710 actually get enforced then even like on

0:40:42.470,0:40:47.989 internet forums they depend on kind of a

0:40:45.710,0:40:51.259 lot of volunteer labor for just things

0:40:47.989,0:40:54.980 like moderation and if you create a

0:40:51.259,0:40:56.809 group that just goes like fundamentally

0:40:54.980,0:40:58.460 against like the vast majority of

0:40:56.809,0:41:00.440 people's values then it's just gonna be

0:40:58.460,0:41:06.680 hard to find volunteer effort for that

0:41:00.440,0:41:08.539 sort of thing and like this so that's

0:41:06.680,0:41:11.180 probably the big in the big reason I

0:41:08.539,0:41:13.700 think why ik so far we don't really see

0:41:11.180,0:41:16.309 a kind of you know complicated like

0:41:13.700,0:41:20.059 decentralized structure is being created

0:41:16.309,0:41:21.650 to facilitate like black black markets

0:41:20.059,0:41:22.819 for killing people and so forth because

0:41:21.650,0:41:26.029 let's start off with something more

0:41:22.819,0:41:28.130 mundane like a numbers racket right so a

0:41:26.029,0:41:31.099 numbers racket would probably be a much

0:41:28.130,0:41:32.960 simpler application so what do you mean

0:41:31.099,0:41:34.400 by numbers racket here well it's

0:41:32.960,0:41:36.650 something that takes the place of a

0:41:34.400,0:41:39.619 lottery where some let's say some

0:41:36.650,0:41:41.749 naturally occurring number that would be

0:41:39.619,0:41:44.329 printed in a newspaper and presumably

0:41:41.749,0:41:47.089 nobody has the influence over what

0:41:44.329,0:41:49.670 number gets printed right constitutes

0:41:47.089,0:41:51.920 the lotto draw lotteries have existed on

0:41:49.670,0:41:55.400 watching since the beginning yeah okay

0:41:51.920,0:41:57.319 even there's definitely been this kind

0:41:55.400,0:41:59.569 of sub community of people that created

0:41:57.319,0:42:01.099 these kind of provably faire Ponzi

0:41:59.569,0:42:03.019 contracts where and we have a smart

0:42:01.099,0:42:05.180 contracts and you can throw money in and

0:42:03.019,0:42:07.339 as soon as if you're the nth person to

0:42:05.180,0:42:10.069 throw money n su as soon as two n people

0:42:07.339,0:42:11.779 throw money and you get like 1.92 back

0:42:10.069,0:42:15.739 or something like that and like this was

0:42:11.779,0:42:18.200 just a fun game that people have made

0:42:15.739,0:42:19.910 and like participated in even fully

0:42:18.200,0:42:23.569 knowing what the economics of the thing

0:42:19.910,0:42:28.690 are so yeah in thing things like that

0:42:23.569,0:42:32.089 have definitely happened so I don't like

0:42:28.690,0:42:34.700 though in gambling is the sort of thing

0:42:32.089,0:42:36.739 that like there isn't like there isn't

0:42:34.700,0:42:38.539 this kind of nine ninety nine percent

0:42:36.739,0:42:41.150 plus consensus that it's really horrible

0:42:38.539,0:42:42.589 and evil right because like on the one

0:42:41.150,0:42:44.059 hand like lots of people want to be on

0:42:42.589,0:42:49.089 it but on the other hand people do it

0:42:44.059,0:42:51.829 and it's something that I think people

0:42:49.089,0:42:53.660 see negative consequences of but at the

0:42:51.829,0:42:55.249 same time it's something it is something

0:42:53.660,0:42:59.299 that people participate in and enjoy

0:42:55.249,0:43:01.549 whereas the I mean if extremely bad

0:42:59.299,0:43:04.160 stuff like that's there's definitely

0:43:01.549,0:43:06.559 this kind of this kind of barrier

0:43:04.160,0:43:08.239 between kind of things that are edgy

0:43:06.559,0:43:11.359 versus things that are just so far over

0:43:08.239,0:43:15.799 the edge and for things that are and if

0:43:11.359,0:43:17.869 so so far over the edge like it is yeah

0:43:15.799,0:43:19.220 even with smart contracts and even with

0:43:17.869,0:43:21.410 all of those things it's still hard to

0:43:19.220,0:43:25.160 coordinate those structures and I think

0:43:21.410,0:43:28.430 like the blockchain like the blockchains

0:43:25.160,0:43:30.109 inability to directly read facts about

0:43:28.430,0:43:33.710 the real world could even be a saving

0:43:30.109,0:43:36.410 grace here because like because a

0:43:33.710,0:43:38.029 blockchain can't directly read like

0:43:36.410,0:43:39.710 whether or not something in the real

0:43:38.029,0:43:41.239 world happens it basically me and said

0:43:39.710,0:43:42.739 if you want to have some application

0:43:41.239,0:43:45.140 whether a prediction market or something

0:43:42.739,0:43:46.489 else that does okay so can we say a

0:43:45.140,0:43:48.259 little bit more about the probably

0:43:46.489,0:43:48.799 intellectual problem that you're you're

0:43:48.259,0:43:50.690 in touching

0:43:48.799,0:43:52.999 so the idea is that there may be

0:43:50.690,0:43:58.130 something that's very perceptible to us

0:43:52.999,0:44:00.019 hmm about the real world but we might

0:43:58.130,0:44:01.869 naively think well the computer should

0:44:00.019,0:44:04.400 be able to tell whether that happened

0:44:01.869,0:44:07.460 right or it didn't happen and that

0:44:04.400,0:44:11.630 that's a surprisingly difficult thing to

0:44:07.460,0:44:15.230 code up reliably so that the interface

0:44:11.630,0:44:19.420 between the world of bits and bytes in

0:44:15.230,0:44:22.279 the world of otherwise physical reality

0:44:19.420,0:44:26.150 which often we don't realize we're

0:44:22.279,0:44:27.250 thinking about subjectively hmm that

0:44:26.150,0:44:30.430 it's hard to

0:44:27.250,0:44:32.530 maintain that interface so that the way

0:44:30.430,0:44:34.360 in which the things that have happened

0:44:32.530,0:44:36.550 in the real world can be definitely

0:44:34.360,0:44:38.830 agreed upon without us any kind of

0:44:36.550,0:44:40.930 adjudication inside of the digital right

0:44:38.830,0:44:43.270 yeah so I don't know how to say that

0:44:40.930,0:44:45.730 well block chains are an a fundamentally

0:44:43.270,0:44:47.890 programmatic medium all they see is data

0:44:45.730,0:44:50.650 that gets fed into them and what they

0:44:47.890,0:44:54.370 can compute as a result of that data and

0:44:50.650,0:44:56.920 so if you wants to create a smart

0:44:54.370,0:44:59.560 contract that says if someone figures

0:44:56.920,0:45:01.330 out how to what the prime factors have a

0:44:59.560,0:45:03.370 big number or pay them a reward you can

0:45:01.330,0:45:04.510 do that because prime prime factors are

0:45:03.370,0:45:07.150 something that you can multiply together

0:45:04.510,0:45:10.000 and verify but if he wants to have a

0:45:07.150,0:45:13.000 smart contract that says if there's a

0:45:10.000,0:45:14.980 hurricane and in Srilanka then pay five

0:45:13.000,0:45:17.080 hundred bucks then like you can't do

0:45:14.980,0:45:19.390 that on the watch in itself because like

0:45:17.080,0:45:20.830 computer code has no idea what

0:45:19.390,0:45:23.590 hurricanes are it has no idea what's

0:45:20.830,0:45:26.980 real like is nobody but in that case

0:45:23.590,0:45:29.710 could have a designation that you know

0:45:26.980,0:45:31.180 that the National correct you can you

0:45:29.710,0:45:32.830 can get data from third-party sources

0:45:31.180,0:45:35.410 and this is the thing that B else turns

0:45:32.830,0:45:36.910 it into data exactly this is the the

0:45:35.410,0:45:38.560 thing that a lot of applications are

0:45:36.910,0:45:41.080 doing but the thing that's important to

0:45:38.560,0:45:43.360 keep in mind is that as soon as you do

0:45:41.080,0:45:46.210 that a guru or smart contractor has no

0:45:43.360,0:45:48.070 longer fully trust us right right so

0:45:46.210,0:45:52.900 there's this concept which is like a

0:45:48.070,0:45:54.730 utopian concept of a trustless legal

0:45:52.900,0:45:57.190 system so that you don't have the

0:45:54.730,0:45:59.320 messiness of humans anywhere in the

0:45:57.190,0:46:01.810 system and you can have complete faith

0:45:59.320,0:46:03.430 and confidence in the contract that

0:46:01.810,0:46:07.060 you've struck yeah right and like

0:46:03.430,0:46:08.770 outside of prude like basically giving

0:46:07.060,0:46:10.870 bounties for solving math problems so

0:46:08.770,0:46:12.840 like it's not something that you can

0:46:10.870,0:46:17.470 100% achieve so I can't necessarily

0:46:12.840,0:46:21.190 ensure my vacation that if if I go all

0:46:17.470,0:46:24.790 the way to Argentina and the weather is

0:46:21.190,0:46:26.860 terrible it pays out because we can't

0:46:24.790,0:46:30.040 agree what terrible weather is right

0:46:26.860,0:46:32.230 like you can create structures bit made

0:46:30.040,0:46:35.890 out of individual participants they can

0:46:32.230,0:46:38.410 try to and if align incentives to get

0:46:35.890,0:46:40.690 people to kind of give to give correct

0:46:38.410,0:46:41.150 results so and you can have complicated

0:46:40.690,0:46:42.619 and if

0:46:41.150,0:46:43.970 interruptions involving people giving

0:46:42.619,0:46:46.549 different answers and policing each

0:46:43.970,0:46:47.960 other and rewarding people who give the

0:46:46.549,0:46:49.750 same answer that other people have

0:46:47.960,0:46:53.329 committed to and things like this but

0:46:49.750,0:46:56.660 like you can only try to approach the

0:46:53.329,0:46:58.670 had like the idea love kind of correct

0:46:56.660,0:47:02.960 truth like you can never 100% reach it

0:46:58.670,0:47:06.799 now you started aetherium in 2014-2015

0:47:02.960,0:47:10.039 um started started end of 2013 I mean it

0:47:06.799,0:47:12.079 watched in 2015 okay would you say let's

0:47:10.039,0:47:15.760 use launch data as an artificial sure

0:47:12.079,0:47:21.079 date would you say you are more or less

0:47:15.760,0:47:23.240 excited emotionally hmm then you were

0:47:21.079,0:47:27.579 when it started you've now been through

0:47:23.240,0:47:27.579 so you've logged some miles here hmm I

0:47:30.069,0:47:37.640 definitely definitely stay excited I

0:47:34.150,0:47:40.880 worked I think the main difference is

0:47:37.640,0:47:43.700 kind of more like definitely a kinda

0:47:40.880,0:47:46.099 excited in the sense of like four years

0:47:43.700,0:47:48.680 well definite and like I kind of as

0:47:46.099,0:47:51.349 opposed to indefinite like four years

0:47:48.680,0:47:54.140 yeah four years ago was about like hey

0:47:51.349,0:47:56.210 let's make this platform to kind of try

0:47:54.140,0:47:57.589 really a bunch of really cool things we

0:47:56.210,0:48:00.020 have no idea what's gonna happen and

0:47:57.589,0:48:02.630 let's just stick it out there and now

0:48:00.020,0:48:04.609 like we know things about things and

0:48:02.630,0:48:07.910 people are already doing we know things

0:48:04.609,0:48:09.740 about things that people wants to do on

0:48:07.910,0:48:12.890 wait hands we'll also know more about

0:48:09.740,0:48:15.140 Nick what the limitations are and so

0:48:12.890,0:48:17.390 instead of just being this kind of

0:48:15.140,0:48:19.849 extremely fuzzy dream of like let's

0:48:17.390,0:48:22.099 stick smart contracts and algorithms and

0:48:19.849,0:48:27.609 kind of trust us if I everything right

0:48:22.099,0:48:31.400 it's something that's kind of both more

0:48:27.609,0:48:34.160 moderate but also kind of more like

0:48:31.400,0:48:36.140 seeming much more like it I like it

0:48:34.160,0:48:37.819 actually has a big chance of kind of

0:48:36.140,0:48:41.029 transforming the world and of precisely

0:48:37.819,0:48:44.180 because that's when moderated to some

0:48:41.029,0:48:46.069 extent so you more if I gave you false

0:48:44.180,0:48:47.990 three choices and by the way smart

0:48:46.069,0:48:50.029 people always hate these things so feel

0:48:47.990,0:48:51.589 free to break the model mmm if I gave

0:48:50.029,0:48:53.710 you a choice between saying are you

0:48:51.589,0:48:55.180 mostly excited about

0:48:53.710,0:48:57.730 the technology and the amount of

0:48:55.180,0:48:59.410 innovation are you mostly excited about

0:48:57.730,0:49:02.830 the business opportunities for yourself

0:48:59.410,0:49:06.119 or are you mostly excited about the way

0:49:02.830,0:49:08.740 in which this could transform human life

0:49:06.119,0:49:11.560 would you be that would that be an easy

0:49:08.740,0:49:14.140 call or would you say I reject that

0:49:11.560,0:49:19.839 decision tree some mix over the first

0:49:14.140,0:49:21.550 and the third mm no I just like the

0:49:19.839,0:49:23.619 framing of business opportunities is

0:49:21.550,0:49:26.800 definitely kind of never ik like this is

0:49:23.619,0:49:28.510 weird I mean the despite and I've even I

0:49:26.800,0:49:30.880 get the sense that you don't love money

0:49:28.510,0:49:34.869 enough yeah this is true

0:49:30.880,0:49:36.910 okay hmm I mean it's weird because I for

0:49:34.869,0:49:38.320 a long time you have a lot of it yeah

0:49:36.910,0:49:40.540 well I have a lot of it and it's also

0:49:38.320,0:49:43.630 even weirder because I like for a long

0:49:40.540,0:49:45.700 time I subscribed so this kind of branch

0:49:43.630,0:49:47.530 of economics that basically says that

0:49:45.700,0:49:49.750 like love of money is like the best

0:49:47.530,0:49:55.839 motivation for B vote for people to have

0:49:49.750,0:49:58.660 an Randian um well in I'd say make in

0:49:55.839,0:50:00.760 that area but it's but I don't get that

0:49:58.660,0:50:03.849 I'll be honest I just don't get that

0:50:00.760,0:50:05.740 vibe right I mean there's I've

0:50:03.849,0:50:08.800 definitely kind of shifted a lot over

0:50:05.740,0:50:10.869 the years I think my experience even

0:50:08.800,0:50:13.300 within the crypto space itself has kind

0:50:10.869,0:50:17.560 of trend and given me a lot of new

0:50:13.300,0:50:21.339 information to work with more like the

0:50:17.560,0:50:24.000 this basically and then this goes back

0:50:21.339,0:50:26.680 to this kind of cryptocurrencies as a

0:50:24.000,0:50:33.940 microcosm of wider society thing right

0:50:26.680,0:50:37.030 like if you're like basically any like

0:50:33.940,0:50:38.859 any movements regardless of like what it

0:50:37.030,0:50:40.330 what the movement is for what its goals

0:50:38.859,0:50:42.339 are to be succeeded needs to be

0:50:40.330,0:50:43.900 sufficiently big and once something is

0:50:42.339,0:50:45.880 sufficiently big it needs to have

0:50:43.900,0:50:47.410 internal structure to a coordinated

0:50:45.880,0:50:49.960 initially of its objectives which means

0:50:47.410,0:50:52.270 that it suffers from governance issues

0:50:49.960,0:50:55.869 it suffers from public goods the issue

0:50:52.270,0:50:58.750 is it suffers from conflicts with

0:50:55.869,0:51:01.780 adjacent movements and suffers from

0:50:58.750,0:51:04.720 conflicts between its own values and its

0:51:01.780,0:51:06.940 and its own desire to succeed and so on

0:51:04.720,0:51:10.270 and so forth and like it needs to

0:51:06.940,0:51:12.849 come up with ways to answer like

0:51:10.270,0:51:14.109 basically almost the same kinds of hard

0:51:12.849,0:51:16.960 problems at the world as a whole is

0:51:14.109,0:51:19.119 working on well you know it's

0:51:16.960,0:51:22.839 interesting when I look at this sort of

0:51:19.119,0:51:24.700 world of people maybe had an epicenter

0:51:22.839,0:51:27.849 in the Bay Area though I think it's less

0:51:24.700,0:51:29.440 true now we're trying to figure out what

0:51:27.849,0:51:34.650 is the future and how do we get there

0:51:29.440,0:51:37.380 there's a very clear sense that people's

0:51:34.650,0:51:40.920 creativity and their intelligence is

0:51:37.380,0:51:44.170 correlated with their financial success

0:51:40.920,0:51:46.240 but it's not very tight and so there's

0:51:44.170,0:51:48.970 like an embarrassment that well that

0:51:46.240,0:51:50.920 person is super amazing and then mm-hmm

0:51:48.970,0:51:53.770 not doing all that well this person

0:51:50.920,0:51:56.410 somehow metabolizing amend this amount

0:51:53.770,0:51:58.359 this is something that I've definitely

0:51:56.410,0:52:01.150 have realized just from one of my

0:51:58.359,0:52:03.250 travels like I've interacted with a lot

0:52:01.150,0:52:04.750 of kind of super famous people in

0:52:03.250,0:52:07.059 different kinds of positions which

0:52:04.750,0:52:08.920 includes like some world leaders and

0:52:07.059,0:52:13.240 includes some kind of leaders of like

0:52:08.920,0:52:16.390 fields in cryptography and it in you

0:52:13.240,0:52:19.690 realize that like people in these

0:52:16.390,0:52:22.210 positions they are impressive but

0:52:19.690,0:52:24.700 they're not like super amazing godlike

0:52:22.210,0:52:26.109 impressive right something tomorrow some

0:52:24.700,0:52:27.849 of them are but then there's also super

0:52:26.109,0:52:29.559 amazing godlike impressive people that

0:52:27.849,0:52:31.210 just like don't get her to get that much

0:52:29.559,0:52:34.210 shit I don't know what I'm trying to get

0:52:31.210,0:52:37.630 at I think about like if you hang around

0:52:34.210,0:52:39.279 with musicians very often you'll have

0:52:37.630,0:52:41.170 some buddies a super famous musicians

0:52:39.279,0:52:42.069 and you want to who's really good and

0:52:41.170,0:52:45.730 they'll tell you some of you've never

0:52:42.069,0:52:50.470 heard of and musician's musician exactly

0:52:45.730,0:52:53.589 this yes right and so you know if I if I

0:52:50.470,0:52:56.109 gave the name of people who are famous

0:52:53.589,0:52:57.970 for being let's say physicists they're

0:52:56.109,0:52:59.890 very often the people on television as

0:52:57.970,0:53:02.260 physicists mm-hmm but they would all

0:52:59.890,0:53:03.460 point to some guy who doesn't give a lot

0:53:02.260,0:53:05.950 of interviews and say well that's the

0:53:03.460,0:53:10.890 top guy exactly like basically the

0:53:05.950,0:53:14.440 social status like is predicted by

0:53:10.890,0:53:17.529 confidence multiplied by like basically

0:53:14.440,0:53:19.299 publicity skill and that's half

0:53:17.529,0:53:20.590 correlated with competence for obvious

0:53:19.299,0:53:21.730 reasons right like those

0:53:20.590,0:53:22.930 people also know the people that have

0:53:21.730,0:53:23.920 the real confidence and that's one of

0:53:22.930,0:53:25.990 the things that I've always found really

0:53:23.920,0:53:28.900 interesting about people who have this

0:53:25.990,0:53:32.860 diehard belief that markets produce

0:53:28.900,0:53:36.250 justice which is I do think that success

0:53:32.860,0:53:41.950 in markets is somewhat correlated or has

0:53:36.250,0:53:44.050 been with things like productivity but

0:53:41.950,0:53:46.270 it's also correlated sometimes with how

0:53:44.050,0:53:48.340 predatory somebody can be or you know

0:53:46.270,0:53:51.460 how lucky they happen to be at a

0:53:48.340,0:53:55.600 particular moment and one of the

0:53:51.460,0:53:57.130 questions that I have is if you're

0:53:55.600,0:53:59.170 really interested in innovation which is

0:53:57.130,0:54:03.250 what I sort of pick up is you know the

0:53:59.170,0:54:06.910 main things how does something like

0:54:03.250,0:54:10.660 aetherium give us a possibility to

0:54:06.910,0:54:12.760 revitalize innovation after what many of

0:54:10.660,0:54:15.900 us consider a period of relative

0:54:12.760,0:54:17.740 stagnancy outside of the areas of

0:54:15.900,0:54:21.310 computation communication which

0:54:17.740,0:54:24.820 everybody knows have exploded hmm do you

0:54:21.310,0:54:30.660 think about how if cerium can mediate a

0:54:24.820,0:54:30.660 new Renaissance a new generative age

0:54:31.260,0:54:37.990 about it a little bit definitely and I

0:54:34.060,0:54:42.970 think I mean there's ten of etherium as

0:54:37.990,0:54:44.650 a platform for experiments in governance

0:54:42.970,0:54:47.740 and public goods funding is one thing I

0:54:44.650,0:54:50.350 mentioned and education is another thing

0:54:47.740,0:54:52.360 that I end of talk about in the end

0:54:50.350,0:54:54.400 obviously we do I mean I have a lot of

0:54:52.360,0:54:58.960 these blog posts on Vitalik dossier in

0:54:54.400,0:55:00.970 other forums and like they're one of the

0:54:58.960,0:55:04.510 big challenges that a for example is

0:55:00.970,0:55:06.430 that like for in and of Internet

0:55:04.510,0:55:08.170 educational resources in general there's

0:55:06.430,0:55:10.900 basically two kinds right there's like

0:55:08.170,0:55:13.270 papers and I Wikipedia and like

0:55:10.900,0:55:14.950 basically things that are technically

0:55:13.270,0:55:17.590 accurate but they're just not core ibly

0:55:14.950,0:55:19.510 not understand understandable at all and

0:55:17.590,0:55:21.490 we should not be forcing people to even

0:55:19.510,0:55:23.650 try reading them and then there's pops a

0:55:21.490,0:55:26.080 literature which is very accessible but

0:55:23.650,0:55:30.280 it's often just actively wrong in really

0:55:26.080,0:55:31.720 horrible ways and okay I personally even

0:55:30.280,0:55:33.370 before a theorem like I did Bitcoin

0:55:31.720,0:55:34.420 magazine for example like I've always

0:55:33.370,0:55:37.779 tried

0:55:34.420,0:55:41.410 to find this kind of middle gap this way

0:55:37.779,0:55:43.839 to explain can take concepts that are

0:55:41.410,0:55:45.700 technical and if expand them to a bride

0:55:43.839,0:55:48.519 a broader audience so they are more

0:55:45.700,0:55:51.569 accessible and like this to me has been

0:55:48.519,0:55:53.589 important in part because like I view

0:55:51.569,0:55:55.990 accessibility of information about the

0:55:53.589,0:55:58.210 technology as a precondition for even

0:55:55.990,0:55:59.950 the decentralization of the space like

0:55:58.210,0:56:01.720 if the thing technically runs on fifty

0:55:59.950,0:56:03.039 thousand computers but only forty two

0:56:01.720,0:56:04.660 people know how it works and your

0:56:03.039,0:56:07.960 decentralization indexes and fifty

0:56:04.660,0:56:10.450 thousand it's 42 you know and so there's

0:56:07.960,0:56:15.549 a very nice point yeah and so trying to

0:56:10.450,0:56:17.140 kind of improve like even how we in the

0:56:15.549,0:56:20.019 etherium community and if work on

0:56:17.140,0:56:23.470 innovation internally but so those are

0:56:20.019,0:56:27.700 kind of things that and if that happened

0:56:23.470,0:56:29.529 in blockchains as a novella as a lab for

0:56:27.700,0:56:31.680 trying out new things kind of first for

0:56:29.529,0:56:33.549 the blockchain space and then

0:56:31.680,0:56:35.890 potentially export it to other things

0:56:33.549,0:56:38.559 and then we can also look at head of

0:56:35.890,0:56:41.799 wall chains as something that can be

0:56:38.559,0:56:45.490 used to improve and create better

0:56:41.799,0:56:48.069 institutions so like one of the etherium

0:56:45.490,0:56:50.589 foundations researchers vlad sam fear he

0:56:48.069,0:56:51.940 actually got into aetherium because he

0:56:50.589,0:56:55.720 was working at how to improve academic

0:56:51.940,0:56:57.130 publishing and like he saw things like

0:56:55.720,0:56:59.890 you know the existing peer review

0:56:57.130,0:57:01.839 mechanisms and how they were just a very

0:56:59.890,0:57:05.259 flawed in a bunch of ways and he thought

0:57:01.839,0:57:07.450 that like hey here's potentially apply

0:57:05.259,0:57:09.309 form that we could use to build

0:57:07.450,0:57:12.369 something that does better and like

0:57:09.309,0:57:15.039 that's one of his core interests and why

0:57:12.369,0:57:17.410 he is even continuing to work on the

0:57:15.039,0:57:20.170 technology you know i hadn't understood

0:57:17.410,0:57:22.750 how insiders viewed peer review in an

0:57:20.170,0:57:25.569 academic context until he finance

0:57:22.750,0:57:28.329 professor got drunk at a party and said

0:57:25.569,0:57:31.029 you know that guy who's harassing you

0:57:28.329,0:57:32.710 and your research in finance you don't

0:57:31.029,0:57:34.660 know why he's doing i said well why do

0:57:32.710,0:57:37.119 you think he's doing so i know he says

0:57:34.660,0:57:40.210 we've created a system where our fees

0:57:37.119,0:57:44.380 are sky-high to consult and we do this

0:57:40.210,0:57:46.539 by making the number of professors in

0:57:44.380,0:57:47.400 our field small by controlling peer

0:57:46.539,0:57:49.079 review

0:57:47.400,0:57:50.670 and so that effectively we are at

0:57:49.079,0:57:54.359 conspiracy in restraint like this guy's

0:57:50.670,0:57:56.130 just telling me straight out that this

0:57:54.359,0:57:58.500 is a gating function to keep their

0:57:56.130,0:58:00.569 consulting fees high and that this guy

0:57:58.500,0:58:02.609 is gonna do everything that they tell

0:58:00.569,0:58:04.109 him to do because otherwise he can't

0:58:02.609,0:58:07.200 come into the club and charge these

0:58:04.109,0:58:09.869 rates that sounds about right

0:58:07.200,0:58:11.339 right so him that one of the app another

0:58:09.869,0:58:13.559 killer application so you have one

0:58:11.339,0:58:15.569 potential suite of applications which

0:58:13.559,0:58:18.359 have to do with facilitating illegality

0:58:15.569,0:58:20.910 some of that might regard will result in

0:58:18.359,0:58:24.180 net reduction of harm because you could

0:58:20.910,0:58:27.900 replace violence with math yes on the

0:58:24.180,0:58:31.410 other hand a place where you could have

0:58:27.900,0:58:36.779 a really positive effect is political

0:58:31.410,0:58:40.980 economy where by removing the human

0:58:36.779,0:58:43.289 ability to act badly you effectively

0:58:40.980,0:58:47.880 create a much fairer more representative

0:58:43.289,0:58:50.520 world exactly you know what do we do so

0:58:47.880,0:58:52.260 you have an interest in in the two

0:58:50.520,0:58:55.440 fields that I find Wikipedia can't

0:58:52.260,0:58:58.470 explain to any normal human being our

0:58:55.440,0:59:00.359 theoretical math and physics even

0:58:58.470,0:59:01.829 biology you can sort of guess what's

0:59:00.359,0:59:04.950 going on because you have something

0:59:01.829,0:59:07.260 concrete to the area but even biology

0:59:04.950,0:59:08.609 like you got a learn math the deeply

0:59:07.260,0:59:11.010 grok it because otherwise you're just

0:59:08.609,0:59:14.910 memorizing like names of chemicals well

0:59:11.010,0:59:19.260 but you could my here I have a PhD in

0:59:14.910,0:59:22.349 math if I try to read a math paper one

0:59:19.260,0:59:25.319 or two fields over from my own field

0:59:22.349,0:59:27.420 right I will do less well with it than

0:59:25.319,0:59:29.119 if I read a biology paper and even

0:59:27.420,0:59:32.220 though I've taken no class in biology

0:59:29.119,0:59:35.880 that sounds right yeah yeah like there's

0:59:32.220,0:59:38.299 a difference between the level of math

0:59:35.880,0:59:41.010 that you have to know it's you just

0:59:38.299,0:59:44.039 because it's important for you as a

0:59:41.010,0:59:45.720 philosopher and then and like that's

0:59:44.039,0:59:47.760 about the level of math that I think you

0:59:45.720,0:59:49.319 need even to be good at biology to be

0:59:47.760,0:59:52.410 good at economics to be good at a lot of

0:59:49.319,0:59:54.420 things right it's understanding like

0:59:52.410,0:59:57.119 principles even things like for example

0:59:54.420,0:59:59.460 if you have a trade-off between x and y

0:59:57.119,1:00:01.240 and right now you're optimizing entirely

0:59:59.460,1:00:03.490 for x and it's a smooth curve

1:00:01.240,1:00:04.900 then if he wants a little bit of Y then

1:00:03.490,1:00:06.940 you can get your first bit of Y at

1:00:04.900,1:00:10.030 almost like zero cost of X right and

1:00:06.940,1:00:12.460 that's just a prop like it's a property

1:00:10.030,1:00:13.960 of continuous functions that look from

1:00:12.460,1:00:16.960 the maximum of the derivative starts at

1:00:13.960,1:00:19.960 zero you know like if you kind of just

1:00:16.960,1:00:22.180 deeply kind of mentally grok about like

1:00:19.960,1:00:23.560 a couple hundred of these facts the way

1:00:22.180,1:00:25.810 you're deeply kind of mentally grow out

1:00:23.560,1:00:28.210 like how to walk then like you get a lot

1:00:25.810,1:00:30.130 but then from there there's also like

1:00:28.210,1:00:32.860 the frontiers and often I mean the

1:00:30.130,1:00:34.210 frontiers were most important well so

1:00:32.860,1:00:36.850 here's a weird thing I don't know how to

1:00:34.210,1:00:37.750 bring up when I try to understand crypto

1:00:36.850,1:00:40.680 as a space

1:00:37.750,1:00:43.600 I'm always confronted by how incredibly

1:00:40.680,1:00:46.390 Byzantine and impossible it is to

1:00:43.600,1:00:48.369 understand all of the acronyms all of

1:00:46.390,1:00:53.440 the sub pieces of history I mean it's an

1:00:48.369,1:00:56.650 incredibly fragmented experience in

1:00:53.440,1:01:02.280 which I spend a long period of time just

1:00:56.650,1:01:05.290 feeling moronic isn't it odd that like

1:01:02.280,1:01:07.240 etherium itself suffers from this this

1:01:05.290,1:01:09.420 problem it's hard to know what's going

1:01:07.240,1:01:12.580 on yeah it's definitely something that

1:01:09.420,1:01:15.220 we wants to fix so if I mean if you ever

1:01:12.580,1:01:16.540 have suggestions on like what

1:01:15.220,1:01:18.010 specifically we could make more

1:01:16.540,1:01:21.520 understandable I'm always happy to hear

1:01:18.010,1:01:23.700 those fantastic now one thing that I

1:01:21.520,1:01:27.190 think is really interesting is this

1:01:23.700,1:01:30.790 episode that occurred in the etherium

1:01:27.190,1:01:35.440 space in which you are faced with a very

1:01:30.790,1:01:40.000 serious question of leadership having to

1:01:35.440,1:01:42.910 do with an emergency that you could have

1:01:40.000,1:01:45.100 either allowed to follow the rules that

1:01:42.910,1:01:48.850 had been previously specified in some

1:01:45.100,1:01:50.650 sense or could where you could interject

1:01:48.850,1:01:53.140 a certain amount of human intervention

1:01:50.650,1:01:57.130 but thereby letting people know that

1:01:53.140,1:01:59.830 this was to some extent not mediated

1:01:57.130,1:02:01.270 only by rules and computers can you can

1:01:59.830,1:02:05.380 you say a little bit about this famous

1:02:01.270,1:02:07.660 incident and sure so in 2016 there was

1:02:05.380,1:02:11.050 this smart contract that a group called

1:02:07.660,1:02:13.050 salokya launched called the dao and do

1:02:11.050,1:02:15.040 stands for a decentralized autonomous

1:02:13.050,1:02:17.110 organization and such our my team

1:02:15.040,1:02:19.840 with about three years before and it

1:02:17.110,1:02:21.580 basically means that maybe you can have

1:02:19.840,1:02:24.850 a smart contract to this computer

1:02:21.580,1:02:27.130 program that controls digital assets and

1:02:24.850,1:02:30.280 if encode a set of rules for an

1:02:27.130,1:02:31.930 organization and like you can use this

1:02:30.280,1:02:33.580 kind of smart contract basically as a

1:02:31.930,1:02:36.430 replacement for things like companies

1:02:33.580,1:02:39.970 and so some I could decide to launch a

1:02:36.430,1:02:42.610 Dao and their Dao was intended to be

1:02:39.970,1:02:47.080 basically a decentralized VC fund so

1:02:42.610,1:02:48.910 people could apply the Dao would vote on

1:02:47.080,1:02:51.610 which projects were worth investing in

1:02:48.910,1:02:57.130 so leaderless rule-based yeah and

1:02:51.610,1:02:59.740 virtual exactly know is they hit hit all

1:02:57.130,1:03:02.320 the cypherpunk nodes that they're in the

1:02:59.740,1:03:05.710 right place okay and the thing launched

1:03:02.320,1:03:08.200 and we were all expecting it during its

1:03:05.710,1:03:10.600 kind of initial fundraising phase which

1:03:08.200,1:03:12.730 was also like an open public blockchain

1:03:10.600,1:03:15.430 process and to maybe get five million

1:03:12.730,1:03:18.130 dollars but then it got five and it got

1:03:15.430,1:03:19.900 ten and I got twenty I got fifty and a

1:03:18.130,1:03:23.950 hundred and then the price of youth went

1:03:19.900,1:03:26.710 up and I got two hundred and then when I

1:03:23.950,1:03:29.130 was sitting at AF friends was it all

1:03:26.710,1:03:31.990 alarming that it was so successful

1:03:29.130,1:03:33.970 after the 50 mark I definitely have

1:03:31.990,1:03:35.920 switched from excitement's to deep

1:03:33.970,1:03:38.050 apprehension but you know it's a

1:03:35.920,1:03:41.530 contract did you let on that that you

1:03:38.050,1:03:45.490 were feeling that way a bit okay yeah so

1:03:41.530,1:03:47.650 on a June 17th 2016 and when I was in

1:03:45.490,1:03:52.930 Shanghai at a a friend's apartment and

1:03:47.650,1:03:57.670 it was about fifteen thirty something in

1:03:52.930,1:04:00.160 the afternoon I saw a message in one of

1:03:57.670,1:04:02.350 the Skype chats that it was that I was

1:04:00.160,1:04:03.970 in and someone basically was saying hey

1:04:02.350,1:04:05.350 guys look at the Dow it seems like

1:04:03.970,1:04:08.770 there's some money coming out of it and

1:04:05.350,1:04:12.070 so I checked on the public black

1:04:08.770,1:04:14.350 Explorer on the blockchain and I saw oh

1:04:12.070,1:04:16.570 look that it seems like about two

1:04:14.350,1:04:19.420 million dollar has actually already been

1:04:16.570,1:04:21.670 removed from the Dow and more ethos and

1:04:19.420,1:04:24.370 of slowly being drained over time and so

1:04:21.670,1:04:26.880 I pinged the core developers and I asked

1:04:24.370,1:04:30.060 hey is this normal and

1:04:26.880,1:04:31.710 at first I was thinking okay the

1:04:30.060,1:04:33.510 alternative is unthinkable there has to

1:04:31.710,1:04:36.660 be a reasonable explanation for this

1:04:33.510,1:04:41.400 and so you were locked into some sort of

1:04:36.660,1:04:44.400 denial for at the beginning yes and the

1:04:41.400,1:04:46.710 developers looked at it and over the

1:04:44.400,1:04:48.540 next half-hour as more and more people

1:04:46.710,1:04:50.580 came online and started chattering with

1:04:48.540,1:04:54.350 each other it became clear that the

1:04:50.580,1:04:57.330 unthinkable has actually happened and I

1:04:54.350,1:05:01.470 actually burned about 20 of my own if

1:04:57.330,1:05:03.480 like basically just tossing the ethereum

1:05:01.470,1:05:05.670 blockchain in itself and just spamming

1:05:03.480,1:05:07.680 it with transactions to try to and if so

1:05:05.670,1:05:09.090 low the attacker I've seen is denial of

1:05:07.680,1:05:10.620 service yeah yeah just spam the

1:05:09.090,1:05:13.020 blockchain with dren that got all of my

1:05:10.620,1:05:14.970 listeners will know the terms okay so

1:05:13.020,1:05:16.260 that the attackers transactions could

1:05:14.970,1:05:17.850 not get in as quickly because the

1:05:16.260,1:05:20.100 attackers transact the attacker could

1:05:17.850,1:05:21.720 only withdraw something like a couple

1:05:20.100,1:05:24.210 hundred East with every transaction so

1:05:21.720,1:05:26.970 it was a slow process like in the hopes

1:05:24.210,1:05:29.130 that the developers would find some way

1:05:26.970,1:05:30.990 to ply was an intentional inefficiency

1:05:29.130,1:05:32.820 or was just that it was it was not

1:05:30.990,1:05:34.500 intentional so in some weird way the

1:05:32.820,1:05:35.940 inefficiency was a good thing yes it

1:05:34.500,1:05:37.620 gets even weirder there was an even

1:05:35.940,1:05:39.560 bigger and efficiency that would that

1:05:37.620,1:05:43.890 would prove to be an even better thing

1:05:39.560,1:05:46.290 so but then the developers however did

1:05:43.890,1:05:48.360 not find a way to plug the hole but the

1:05:46.290,1:05:50.730 attacker voluntarily stopped after

1:05:48.360,1:05:53.550 stealing about 4 million eath from the

1:05:50.730,1:05:55.740 dough but in any case the this is a

1:05:53.550,1:05:58.680 second in efficiency it voluntarily

1:05:55.740,1:06:01.200 stopped yeah there was a request made no

1:05:58.680,1:06:06.900 no as in the attacker just stopped ok

1:06:01.200,1:06:07.680 and and so here's the second and bigger

1:06:06.900,1:06:10.710 in efficiency

1:06:07.680,1:06:13.170 the money that was the attacker took out

1:06:10.710,1:06:14.600 the four million eighth it did not go

1:06:13.170,1:06:17.130 into the attacker swallow it immediately

1:06:14.600,1:06:20.550 instead it went into a child smart

1:06:17.130,1:06:22.050 contract and only after 35 days could

1:06:20.550,1:06:24.450 the attacker action we take that money

1:06:22.050,1:06:27.030 out and this was child smart contract

1:06:24.450,1:06:30.120 you mean a separate smart contract that

1:06:27.030,1:06:33.750 was created through a function call of

1:06:30.120,1:06:36.420 the main Dao smart contract ok so this

1:06:33.750,1:06:39.470 was also not intended right it was just

1:06:36.420,1:06:40.890 like a random quirk of this of fate that

1:06:39.470,1:06:43.080 there was this

1:06:40.890,1:06:44.940 big bug that was the biggest smart

1:06:43.080,1:06:47.910 contract theft in history up until that

1:06:44.940,1:06:50.280 point and it put the money into this

1:06:47.910,1:06:52.410 convenient box were just a conveniently

1:06:50.280,1:06:57.180 locked for 35 days where everyone could

1:06:52.410,1:07:00.540 stare and look at it oh yeah and the

1:06:57.180,1:07:02.580 soon after this there were calls

1:07:00.540,1:07:04.560 happening between core developers and

1:07:02.580,1:07:07.950 the proposal to remedy the situation

1:07:04.560,1:07:10.320 with a blockchain fork I came into play

1:07:07.950,1:07:12.840 right so basically what happened here is

1:07:10.320,1:07:15.120 the it was a blockchain fork an

1:07:12.840,1:07:19.230 emotional issue for this community yeah

1:07:15.120,1:07:20.850 so why is it so what I guess first of

1:07:19.230,1:07:24.150 all what is it exactly so explain what

1:07:20.850,1:07:25.830 what would happen so in general a

1:07:24.150,1:07:29.040 blockchain forcus on normal process

1:07:25.830,1:07:30.930 right you have an upgrade and the

1:07:29.040,1:07:33.720 developers of the etherium clients

1:07:30.930,1:07:36.390 implement code that basically says after

1:07:33.720,1:07:38.790 block number four three seven zero zero

1:07:36.390,1:07:40.170 zero zero stop processing blocks

1:07:38.790,1:07:41.640 according to the old rules start

1:07:40.170,1:07:43.260 processing blocks according to the new

1:07:41.640,1:07:47.250 rules which have extra features attached

1:07:43.260,1:07:53.000 and where blocks are just said packages

1:07:47.250,1:07:56.940 of transactions okay and B's and so ever

1:07:53.000,1:07:59.100 before this sub I know these code

1:07:56.940,1:08:01.110 patches are formally proposed there is

1:07:59.100,1:08:02.730 this month-long period of mini month

1:08:01.110,1:08:05.070 long period of deliberation we are

1:08:02.730,1:08:08.130 changes or proposed people discuss them

1:08:05.070,1:08:09.960 people talk about them and generally

1:08:08.130,1:08:12.450 it's agreed that these changes are good

1:08:09.960,1:08:14.160 and so people just go and download the

1:08:12.450,1:08:16.470 code and because everyone's downloaded

1:08:14.160,1:08:18.150 the code the blockchain after block four

1:08:16.470,1:08:19.320 three seven zero zero zero zero follows

1:08:18.150,1:08:22.290 these difference in better it's a very

1:08:19.320,1:08:24.300 warm and very human process yeah called

1:08:22.290,1:08:29.130 logic of a machine exactly

1:08:24.300,1:08:31.920 and so the dal Fork

1:08:29.130,1:08:34.350 it was also a fork it was also a code

1:08:31.920,1:08:38.550 change implemented by the developers of

1:08:34.350,1:08:41.610 the clients that is it was pushed out

1:08:38.550,1:08:43.530 through a new version of the different

1:08:41.610,1:08:45.900 clients that people could download and

1:08:43.530,1:08:49.320 users went ahead and voluntarily

1:08:45.900,1:08:51.000 downloaded it and it would basically

1:08:49.320,1:08:52.680 change the rules of the blockchain

1:08:51.000,1:08:53.849 except instead of changing them

1:08:52.680,1:08:55.859 permanently

1:08:53.849,1:08:58.079 it would only do what a single one time

1:08:55.859,1:09:01.529 change and the single one time change

1:08:58.079,1:09:03.509 basically said during block one one nine

1:09:01.529,1:09:06.599 two zero zero zero zero before

1:09:03.509,1:09:09.989 processing any transactions take the

1:09:06.599,1:09:11.790 ether that stuck in the this child

1:09:09.989,1:09:13.739 contract and move it into another

1:09:11.790,1:09:17.819 contract that could then basically

1:09:13.739,1:09:20.339 refund it all to the victims and so this

1:09:17.819,1:09:22.859 is a very kind of manual intervention

1:09:20.339,1:09:25.310 right it basically says like we all

1:09:22.859,1:09:27.420 agree it's a run code that just

1:09:25.310,1:09:29.159 irregularly takes this money and just

1:09:27.420,1:09:32.339 reassigns it so that's other thing so

1:09:29.159,1:09:34.469 the the it's very weird because you know

1:09:32.339,1:09:37.020 we always think in like a sci-fi movie

1:09:34.469,1:09:39.810 that some thing that you think is human

1:09:37.020,1:09:42.329 would rip off its mask and reveal itself

1:09:39.810,1:09:44.520 to be a computer and this is the reverse

1:09:42.329,1:09:47.609 exactly pewter face is ripped off

1:09:44.520,1:09:50.880 revealing humans behind this this

1:09:47.609,1:09:53.099 technological stack yes and I mean

1:09:50.880,1:09:56.730 ultimately like people talk about head

1:09:53.099,1:09:58.889 of blockchain immutability and like this

1:09:56.730,1:10:00.900 is this idea that basically you're not

1:09:58.889,1:10:03.119 supposed to do this sort of thing and

1:10:00.900,1:10:05.909 where does that supposed to come from

1:10:03.119,1:10:08.010 exactly it so like there is there's

1:10:05.909,1:10:09.810 definitely a sense in which it exists

1:10:08.010,1:10:11.190 technologically because like actually

1:10:09.810,1:10:14.369 pulling off one of these Forks is

1:10:11.190,1:10:16.139 incredibly hard and for example if it

1:10:14.369,1:10:18.300 was not the case that the money was

1:10:16.139,1:10:20.550 conveniently stuck there and one nice

1:10:18.300,1:10:22.079 little address for 35 days it would

1:10:20.550,1:10:24.179 basically not have been possible to do

1:10:22.079,1:10:26.280 it right because when as soon as you

1:10:24.179,1:10:27.719 announced this protocol change that says

1:10:26.280,1:10:29.550 we're gonna take money out of CR put it

1:10:27.719,1:10:30.840 in there the attacker could just move

1:10:29.550,1:10:33.510 the money from there to a different

1:10:30.840,1:10:34.770 address and basically you play this

1:10:33.510,1:10:37.349 cat-and-mouse game and the attacker

1:10:34.770,1:10:39.989 could win but sometimes there is this

1:10:37.349,1:10:41.940 possibility where you up so that we can

1:10:39.989,1:10:44.820 and just like do these interventions and

1:10:41.940,1:10:46.199 you can just decide to stop writing this

1:10:44.820,1:10:50.159 code and start running this other code

1:10:46.199,1:10:52.500 and the only reason why this has not

1:10:50.159,1:10:54.929 done more frequently is basically

1:10:52.500,1:10:57.060 because their existing norms right in

1:10:54.929,1:10:58.770 their existing norms in the blockchain

1:10:57.060,1:11:00.510 community of lads iam fear of the

1:10:58.770,1:11:03.150 researcher I mentioned before and if

1:11:00.510,1:11:05.849 calls them a Szabo's Ally and named

1:11:03.150,1:11:07.409 after nick szabo and and nick szabo

1:11:05.849,1:11:08.900 actually just likes the moniker

1:11:07.409,1:11:10.769 like it is a pretty accurate

1:11:08.900,1:11:12.900 representation of kind of his beliefs

1:11:10.769,1:11:15.110 witches and the beliefs of many in the

1:11:12.900,1:11:18.869 crypto community which is basically that

1:11:15.110,1:11:21.630 like even though it technically is code

1:11:18.869,1:11:24.840 run by humans we should act as though it

1:11:21.630,1:11:27.059 is code not run by humans and look

1:11:24.840,1:11:29.249 because it is digital gold right gold is

1:11:27.059,1:11:30.479 not run by humans gold is gold and so if

1:11:29.249,1:11:32.550 we want to make something that is a

1:11:30.479,1:11:34.289 light gold then even though we're

1:11:32.550,1:11:35.939 unfortunately stuck with this thing run

1:11:34.289,1:11:38.459 by humans we should what try as hard as

1:11:35.939,1:11:40.260 we can to pretend it's not and like this

1:11:38.459,1:11:42.719 was the ideology of a lot of people in

1:11:40.260,1:11:46.260 this space and the dal fork very much

1:11:42.719,1:11:50.789 went against this ideology and so even

1:11:46.260,1:11:52.409 though in my opinion like having norms

1:11:50.789,1:11:54.300 that you can't just like go and edit

1:11:52.409,1:11:57.150 whatever you want is valuable but like

1:11:54.300,1:11:58.769 when so such a large fraction of the

1:11:57.150,1:12:00.869 ecosystem is at stake it's worth

1:11:58.769,1:12:02.969 rethinking things but like other people

1:12:00.869,1:12:04.889 were and if even more rigid in this

1:12:02.969,1:12:06.209 regard and so there was this kind of

1:12:04.889,1:12:08.939 split in the community

1:12:06.209,1:12:10.709 and a portion of the community actually

1:12:08.939,1:12:12.389 did not download the updates right a

1:12:10.709,1:12:13.949 portion of the community did not

1:12:12.389,1:12:16.139 download these code patches and

1:12:13.949,1:12:17.820 implement the fork and they just said we

1:12:16.139,1:12:20.579 will continue running our own our old

1:12:17.820,1:12:22.559 chain and the old chain has since then

1:12:20.579,1:12:26.249 been called a theorem classic and it

1:12:22.559,1:12:30.650 runs to this day this is a fascinating

1:12:26.249,1:12:33.209 civil war you know in essence yes and

1:12:30.650,1:12:34.919 what I get out of this is that there's

1:12:33.209,1:12:37.949 this very weird thing which is that

1:12:34.919,1:12:41.039 people get very attached to ideologies

1:12:37.949,1:12:43.019 and then they come to understand why the

1:12:41.039,1:12:46.709 simplistic version of that ideology

1:12:43.019,1:12:49.079 can't possibly work in a warm human

1:12:46.709,1:12:51.059 system I watched this it you have you

1:12:49.079,1:12:53.550 ever gone to this festival called a

1:12:51.059,1:12:55.380 femoral which is sort of Burning Man on

1:12:53.550,1:12:56.909 the water it was I was part of it and I

1:12:55.380,1:12:58.709 got invited to it but I haven't had the

1:12:56.909,1:13:01.559 chance to go yet so it's kind of a

1:12:58.709,1:13:04.679 libertarian Waterworld in the Sacramento

1:13:01.559,1:13:08.219 Delta and what was interesting is is

1:13:04.679,1:13:10.229 that one year in order to come to the

1:13:08.219,1:13:11.820 festival you had to have a lecture and

1:13:10.229,1:13:14.189 you had to agree that you would receive

1:13:11.820,1:13:15.449 the lecture because of problems that had

1:13:14.189,1:13:17.249 happened the previous year

1:13:15.449,1:13:21.170 and you realize that these libertarians

1:13:17.249,1:13:24.260 were being forced to invent governance

1:13:21.170,1:13:27.469 and rather than just anarchy you had to

1:13:24.260,1:13:30.320 have some organized system and so one of

1:13:27.469,1:13:34.690 my questions is is that is that dream of

1:13:30.320,1:13:34.690 escape from the heavy hand of government

1:13:35.469,1:13:41.870 effectively not something to be pursued

1:13:39.040,1:13:43.969 inside of crypto space for the most part

1:13:41.870,1:13:45.710 because we realized that it is going to

1:13:43.969,1:13:47.890 require governance and that we can't

1:13:45.710,1:13:51.920 figure out a way to turn this into a

1:13:47.890,1:13:54.080 completely cold and methodical process

1:13:51.920,1:13:56.960 it depends on which portion of the dream

1:13:54.080,1:13:58.940 you subscribe to like the if the version

1:13:56.960,1:14:02.000 of the dream you subscribe to is the

1:13:58.940,1:14:05.199 dream that says that we can finally use

1:14:02.000,1:14:08.840 algorithms to I basically completely

1:14:05.199,1:14:13.190 eliminate humans ability to interfere in

1:14:08.840,1:14:15.920 things then like if if your goal is to

1:14:13.190,1:14:18.739 see that enforced 100 percent then like

1:14:15.920,1:14:22.760 no you're not going to get that if your

1:14:18.739,1:14:25.820 dream is that you dislike how

1:14:22.760,1:14:27.380 governments have had existing

1:14:25.820,1:14:29.840 governments and monopolies of violence

1:14:27.380,1:14:32.300 have hegemony over this social function

1:14:29.840,1:14:34.699 of coordination and enforcing structures

1:14:32.300,1:14:37.190 of rules and you want there to exist an

1:14:34.699,1:14:39.880 alternative then like that's something

1:14:37.190,1:14:44.750 that we can talk about right so I mean

1:14:39.880,1:14:48.800 if if the dream is to augments yes and I

1:14:44.750,1:14:50.719 mean I'd argue that the block chains

1:14:48.800,1:14:53.360 have a variant of necessary role now

1:14:50.719,1:14:55.250 especially a kind of given modern kind

1:14:53.360,1:14:58.130 of political trends work there basically

1:14:55.250,1:15:00.500 is no single traditional political body

1:14:58.130,1:15:01.850 that's accepted as trustworthy by the

1:15:00.500,1:15:04.310 entire world and it doesn't look like

1:15:01.850,1:15:07.670 there's going to be one but if your

1:15:04.310,1:15:10.160 dream is to and if completely over

1:15:07.670,1:15:11.870 overturn things and have some simplistic

1:15:10.160,1:15:13.870 notion of digital property rights as the

1:15:11.870,1:15:17.630 only thing that governs behavior then

1:15:13.870,1:15:19.820 that's something that like you can try

1:15:17.630,1:15:21.170 for but you're not going to succeed let

1:15:19.820,1:15:23.510 me try something else with you that I'm

1:15:21.170,1:15:26.179 curious about you and I are both plugged

1:15:23.510,1:15:29.030 in to this weird alternate world that

1:15:26.179,1:15:29.919 thinks very differently and I had Andrew

1:15:29.030,1:15:31.510 yang

1:15:29.919,1:15:35.050 in that chair and you saw that episode

1:15:31.510,1:15:38.010 of the the point before some people call

1:15:35.050,1:15:41.409 this neuro divergence that this is a non

1:15:38.010,1:15:46.380 neurotypical world and I would say that

1:15:41.409,1:15:50.590 both you and I exhibit some indicia of

1:15:46.380,1:15:52.300 not thinking along standard lines the

1:15:50.590,1:15:55.599 thing that occurred to me is that you

1:15:52.300,1:15:59.110 brought up slight star codex which is

1:15:55.599,1:16:02.679 this website that is extremely

1:15:59.110,1:16:03.699 influential in our shared world and I

1:16:02.679,1:16:06.579 was thinking about the difference

1:16:03.699,1:16:08.550 between slate star codex and CNN in

1:16:06.579,1:16:12.280 terms of sense making

1:16:08.550,1:16:16.869 is there any way in which the etherium

1:16:12.280,1:16:20.649 world can create a counterweight so that

1:16:16.869,1:16:22.630 the neurodivergent can rest the

1:16:20.649,1:16:25.840 stranglehold that seemingly the

1:16:22.630,1:16:28.899 neurotypical institutional world seems

1:16:25.840,1:16:32.229 to have on sense making it scale like is

1:16:28.899,1:16:33.989 there a way of promoting another blog in

1:16:32.229,1:16:37.149 this world would be like less wrong

1:16:33.989,1:16:39.429 there particular thinkers that I think

1:16:37.149,1:16:42.099 of as being very important influential I

1:16:39.429,1:16:44.499 think you've given to our breda grey and

1:16:42.099,1:16:47.139 Elliot sir you'd kasky there's like this

1:16:44.499,1:16:51.280 very different world that isn't well

1:16:47.139,1:16:53.050 known and in part I view podcasting is

1:16:51.280,1:16:55.719 like pirate radio which is the phrase I

1:16:53.050,1:16:58.929 keep your sum is that because you're

1:16:55.719,1:17:02.439 Russian yes what can we do potentially

1:16:58.929,1:17:05.139 using your technology to even the

1:17:02.439,1:17:07.979 playing field between corporate

1:17:05.139,1:17:10.360 sense-making and this kind of

1:17:07.979,1:17:13.139 home-brewed sense making that seems to

1:17:10.360,1:17:16.059 me to be of an infinitely superior level

1:17:13.139,1:17:20.409 hmm well not infinitely but quite

1:17:16.059,1:17:23.349 superior yeah so I think like once again

1:17:20.409,1:17:26.889 there's kind of two aspects to kind of

1:17:23.349,1:17:28.809 blockchain TM that I think are equally

1:17:26.889,1:17:30.280 valuable here one is the technology

1:17:28.809,1:17:32.199 itself and then the other is the

1:17:30.280,1:17:35.469 existing community around the technology

1:17:32.199,1:17:39.639 and I mean with the tech with the

1:17:35.469,1:17:43.119 technology itself I mean you can try to

1:17:39.639,1:17:43.600 like create and you know institutions

1:17:43.119,1:17:47.050 for

1:17:43.600,1:17:49.780 I could do even things like funding like

1:17:47.050,1:17:51.640 podcasts for example and like even like

1:17:49.780,1:17:53.380 things like this kind of get coin grants

1:17:51.640,1:17:56.080 quadratic voting for example it would be

1:17:53.380,1:17:58.120 a potentially a great way to kind of

1:17:56.080,1:18:02.440 funds media organizations that avoids

1:17:58.120,1:18:04.270 the pitfalls of both say a present-day

1:18:02.440,1:18:06.190 media which is funded by some

1:18:04.270,1:18:08.290 combination of battery of like

1:18:06.190,1:18:10.420 advertising and horrible work made

1:18:08.290,1:18:13.000 incentives and at the same time avoid

1:18:10.420,1:18:15.160 the pitfalls of like basically sent

1:18:13.000,1:18:18.460 accentually controlled media and create

1:18:15.160,1:18:20.080 a third alternative so and like it

1:18:18.460,1:18:22.750 doesn't even have to be quadratic voting

1:18:20.080,1:18:24.610 it could be some other kind of mechanism

1:18:22.750,1:18:26.980 for funding and blog chains could be

1:18:24.610,1:18:30.880 used as a base layer for that there's

1:18:26.980,1:18:36.130 also the end up watching community as a

1:18:30.880,1:18:38.680 group of people who care about the many

1:18:36.130,1:18:40.450 of these kinds of ideas and I mean even

1:18:38.680,1:18:43.600 a lot of etherion people are definitely

1:18:40.450,1:18:46.450 and some weight star codecs adjacent and

1:18:43.600,1:18:49.480 then I feel like I have tried my best to

1:18:46.450,1:18:52.120 kind of bring these worlds together and

1:18:49.480,1:18:54.360 get them to talk to each other in means

1:18:52.120,1:18:56.380 sometimes it is a challenge because

1:18:54.360,1:18:58.270 there's ways in which they're similar

1:18:56.380,1:19:02.140 and there's a lot of people who are in

1:18:58.270,1:19:05.230 both and there's also ways in which

1:19:02.140,1:19:07.030 they're sometimes different but those

1:19:05.230,1:19:09.970 those differences can be a good thing

1:19:07.030,1:19:11.950 yeah I guess I'm concerned that in our

1:19:09.970,1:19:17.470 we were coming up on an election in the

1:19:11.950,1:19:19.300 US and I view Fox News in the New York

1:19:17.470,1:19:23.320 Times and CNN is like watching

1:19:19.300,1:19:25.300 professional wrestling it's got a very

1:19:23.320,1:19:28.630 clear narrative structure before the

1:19:25.300,1:19:29.890 facts even come in yeah this is this is

1:19:28.630,1:19:31.990 actually one of the things I've only

1:19:29.890,1:19:36.540 really started noticing maybe in the

1:19:31.990,1:19:39.190 last like one to two years I think it's

1:19:36.540,1:19:41.230 narratives are something that like don't

1:19:39.190,1:19:43.870 seem like you're there when you're fully

1:19:41.230,1:19:47.200 inside of them but once you and have

1:19:43.870,1:19:49.240 step outside and you start seeing that

1:19:47.200,1:19:50.980 Nick wait these people are missing

1:19:49.240,1:19:53.200 something and they're making predictions

1:19:50.980,1:19:55.780 that turn out to be materially incorrect

1:19:53.200,1:19:56.830 like yeah there's no memory like there's

1:19:55.780,1:19:59.260 no cost

1:19:56.830,1:20:01.750 yeah yeah you want to there's no

1:19:59.260,1:20:04.420 accountability at all and it's something

1:20:01.750,1:20:07.180 that you just actively start thinking

1:20:04.420,1:20:11.730 seeking out how to move beyond yeah you

1:20:07.180,1:20:15.940 know I think figuring out a better

1:20:11.730,1:20:18.730 funding model for media organizations in

1:20:15.940,1:20:21.010 general seems because in some ways what

1:20:18.730,1:20:23.500 I'm concerned about is that something

1:20:21.010,1:20:26.380 like podcasting is almost a public good

1:20:23.500,1:20:28.630 and so that's probably a public good

1:20:26.380,1:20:30.910 well I'm advertising in the one thing

1:20:28.630,1:20:34.360 that right I keep I call it the business

1:20:30.910,1:20:37.360 model of last resort yes and we are

1:20:34.360,1:20:39.070 going with an ad-supported model because

1:20:37.360,1:20:41.560 I don't want to disguise we were

1:20:39.070,1:20:46.630 somebody offered to endow the podcast

1:20:41.560,1:20:48.310 not not my employer and I decided

1:20:46.630,1:20:50.170 against it because I think what I really

1:20:48.310,1:20:52.690 want to do is to try to figure out how

1:20:50.170,1:20:53.730 to improve the business model we've

1:20:52.690,1:20:57.970 talked about a couple different

1:20:53.730,1:21:01.210 variations on advertising in order to

1:20:57.970,1:21:04.150 make sure that controversial but very

1:21:01.210,1:21:06.010 sensible and level-headed people can

1:21:04.150,1:21:08.620 weather the storm that the big problem

1:21:06.010,1:21:11.620 that I keep seeing is that advertisers

1:21:08.620,1:21:15.460 pull when there's a coordinated campaign

1:21:11.620,1:21:19.570 to say drop that program or else yes and

1:21:15.460,1:21:21.940 there's a a need for something like the

1:21:19.570,1:21:24.850 blockchain or a smart contract to make

1:21:21.940,1:21:27.520 sure that you can't silence people who

1:21:24.850,1:21:29.890 are speaking decently just because

1:21:27.520,1:21:33.460 they've pissed off a very large activist

1:21:29.890,1:21:35.380 community right so do you see any way in

1:21:33.460,1:21:38.170 which the blockchain for example like I

1:21:35.380,1:21:40.930 might give up advertising if I could

1:21:38.170,1:21:46.300 figure out a way to fund not only this

1:21:40.930,1:21:49.290 program but allied programs so in 2011

1:21:46.300,1:21:52.180 when I was starting Bitcoin magazine I

1:21:49.290,1:21:54.040 well it started off with like with this

1:21:52.180,1:21:56.770 one anonymous person whose name I'll

1:21:54.040,1:21:59.800 never know who aside from Kiba his

1:21:56.770,1:22:02.050 internet handle and who was just paying

1:21:59.800,1:22:03.970 me five Bitcoin which back then was $4

1:22:02.050,1:22:07.240 per article to write articles for him

1:22:03.970,1:22:08.650 and I mean this was five times or lower

1:22:07.240,1:22:09.910 than a minimum wage but I loved it

1:22:08.650,1:22:10.660 because it was the higher highest wage

1:22:09.910,1:22:15.250 I've ever had

1:22:10.660,1:22:17.650 um and eventually despite paying me five

1:22:15.250,1:22:20.260 times less than minimum wage at Kiba I

1:22:17.650,1:22:22.830 ran out of money and like he's told me

1:22:20.260,1:22:22.830 hey maybe