Portal:12: Vitalik Buterin - The Ethereal Prince and His Virtual Machine

Description
In this episode, Vitalik Buterin sits down with Eric to discuss ethereum, the wider world of crypto and heterodox economics.

Taking note of the new development of blockchain in 2010, Eric wrote an essay called “Go Virtual Young Man”. A few years later, a Thiel Fellow named Vitalik created a virtual machine with an idiosyncratic smart contract system and a currency. Ironically, Eric had recently become a Managing Director at Thiel Capital. Perennially circling each other intellectually, the two now sit down in person to discuss economic paradigm shifts, crypto and the future of online sovereignty and social coordination.

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Unedited Transcript
0:00:07.130,0:00:11.130 hello you found the portal

0:00:09.450,0:00:13.440 I'm your host Eric Weinstein and I'm

0:00:11.130,0:00:18.390 sitting here today with Vitalik Buterin

0:00:13.440,0:00:20.850 the leader and a founder of the

0:00:18.390,0:00:22.560 etherum world of cryptocurrencies and

0:00:20.850,0:00:24.390 smart contracts. Welcome to The Portal.

0:00:22.560,0:00:27.240 thank you it's good to be here Eric it's

0:00:24.390,0:00:28.740 terrific to have you now in general when

0:00:27.240,0:00:30.480 I see you interviewed immediately

0:00:28.740,0:00:32.850 everybody goes straight to crypto

0:00:30.480,0:00:34.350 currencies in a Myriam but one of the

0:00:32.850,0:00:37.469 things that I found fascinating about

0:00:34.350,0:00:40.800 your story is is that in order to be a

0:00:37.469,0:00:44.309 good steward of this new and emerging

0:00:40.800,0:00:46.950 economics you've actually applied

0:00:44.309,0:00:49.620 yourself a great deal to standard and

0:00:46.950,0:00:52.980 regular economic theory and I was

0:00:49.620,0:00:55.710 curious if I understand correctly you

0:00:52.980,0:00:57.719 dropped out of college after a year

0:00:55.710,0:00:59.160 you're self-taught in economics but

0:00:57.719,0:01:01.649 you've taken a real interest in

0:00:59.160,0:01:03.290 understanding how markets and economic

0:01:01.649,0:01:06.450 theory work is that a fair description

0:01:03.290,0:01:10.380 yeah I think so and economics has been

0:01:06.450,0:01:13.500 of an interest for me definitely for a

0:01:10.380,0:01:17.310 long time I mean when I discovered

0:01:13.500,0:01:18.720 Bitcoin back in 2011 and I was still in

0:01:17.310,0:01:21.960 high school it was this kind of

0:01:18.720,0:01:26.070 interesting confluence of ideas that I

0:01:21.960,0:01:28.740 was already pretty attracted to so open

0:01:26.070,0:01:30.299 source culture that was something that a

0:01:28.740,0:01:33.030 and a good friend from high school a

0:01:30.299,0:01:34.920 Christopher all I had already and if

0:01:33.030,0:01:38.369 indoctrinated me with really well I'm

0:01:34.920,0:01:42.540 the of the mathematical in cryptographic

0:01:38.369,0:01:45.240 aspects also libertarianism in Austrian

0:01:42.540,0:01:47.130 economics was kind of the zeitgeist of

0:01:45.240,0:01:49.710 the Bitcoin space at the day and those

0:01:47.130,0:01:53.280 were of ideas that I definitely have

0:01:49.710,0:01:56.250 found philosophically quite attractive

0:01:53.280,0:01:59.009 at that time and you know I was

0:01:56.250,0:02:01.979 definitely curious and I read a bunch of

0:01:59.009,0:02:03.899 books a yeah and read the Austrian

0:02:01.979,0:02:05.969 economics Kanaan because that's what the

0:02:03.899,0:02:09.810 Bitcoin people were kind of talking

0:02:05.969,0:02:12.090 about all day I read some kind of

0:02:09.810,0:02:13.170 behavioral economics literature Ariely

0:02:12.090,0:02:15.030 Kahneman and

0:02:13.170,0:02:17.940 Nakia D&E and all of those people just

0:02:15.030,0:02:22.770 because I knew that I had to read other

0:02:17.940,0:02:26.040 stuff for balance um and yeah and also

0:02:22.770,0:02:28.830 economics itself is a kind in pretty

0:02:26.040,0:02:30.270 mathematical and I've subject well kind

0:02:28.830,0:02:33.840 of right it's it's on the borderline

0:02:30.270,0:02:35.880 because it's kind of both mathematical

0:02:33.840,0:02:37.709 and you got your curves and your

0:02:35.880,0:02:39.569 derivatives and your intersections but

0:02:37.709,0:02:42.500 also it's humanity is right it's like

0:02:39.569,0:02:46.140 really at this intersection of like both

0:02:42.500,0:02:48.330 figuring out how to apply these models

0:02:46.140,0:02:49.709 to and of specific cases and also trying

0:02:48.330,0:02:51.360 to figure out well which models are

0:02:49.709,0:02:53.190 really correct in the first place and

0:02:51.360,0:02:54.989 like the first question you can't answer

0:02:53.190,0:02:57.600 with math but the second question you

0:02:54.989,0:02:58.470 really can't and you need other kinds of

0:02:57.600,0:03:01.769 thinking as well

0:02:58.470,0:03:05.630 well this is an area of my own interest

0:03:01.769,0:03:08.310 because the way I see it economics is

0:03:05.630,0:03:10.560 odd in a way that very few people I

0:03:08.310,0:03:12.690 think have appreciated in that if we

0:03:10.560,0:03:15.269 take what could be argued to be our two

0:03:12.690,0:03:17.970 greatest ideas in scientific scientific

0:03:15.269,0:03:22.079 man let's say one would be sort of the

0:03:17.970,0:03:24.420 geometric dynamics of physics and

0:03:22.079,0:03:27.480 economics has been constructed to be and

0:03:24.420,0:03:30.180 as if physics if you will and on the

0:03:27.480,0:03:31.859 other hand and inherits from the theory

0:03:30.180,0:03:33.690 of selection you could say that markets

0:03:31.859,0:03:35.850 are the continuation of systems of

0:03:33.690,0:03:38.700 selective pressures by other means and

0:03:35.850,0:03:42.329 so what happens when our two greatest

0:03:38.700,0:03:45.420 ideas touch each other and they do it in

0:03:42.329,0:03:47.370 a place which has very bizarre

0:03:45.420,0:03:50.640 properties by my way of thinking that is

0:03:47.370,0:03:52.890 that economists are on the one hand very

0:03:50.640,0:03:54.510 rigorous thinkers and are also very

0:03:52.890,0:03:57.180 susceptible to what we might call

0:03:54.510,0:03:59.940 political economy and distorted thinking

0:03:57.180,0:04:05.850 does that ring true to you yeah

0:03:59.940,0:04:09.900 definitely there's definitely this kind

0:04:05.850,0:04:12.060 of combination of I think for on the one

0:04:09.900,0:04:15.139 hand you have these mathematical

0:04:12.060,0:04:18.930 formulas and on the other hand these

0:04:15.139,0:04:21.810 assumptions and often like the

0:04:18.930,0:04:23.789 assumptions can be pretty pretty well

0:04:21.810,0:04:26.510 hidden and they're kind of difficult to

0:04:23.789,0:04:28.430 see at first glance right in

0:04:26.510,0:04:32.230 like it really can be subtle right so

0:04:28.430,0:04:34.220 like one of the arguments that

0:04:32.230,0:04:35.690 economists tend to put forward is

0:04:34.220,0:04:38.000 basically like mutually beneficial

0:04:35.690,0:04:39.260 transactions are but are beneficial and

0:04:38.000,0:04:43.190 so like we should not interfere with

0:04:39.260,0:04:45.590 them right like if I have a client

0:04:43.190,0:04:47.060 battle and I I want to sell you the

0:04:45.590,0:04:49.430 Klein bottle you're willing to pay five

0:04:47.060,0:04:50.870 dollars then I clearly value it at less

0:04:49.430,0:04:52.340 than five dollars you evaluated more

0:04:50.870,0:04:55.340 than five dollars therefore the

0:04:52.340,0:04:57.350 transactions on net good and like I

0:04:55.340,0:04:58.280 therefore I should give you the bottle

0:04:57.350,0:05:02.180 and you should give me the money and

0:04:58.280,0:05:06.140 that's what we would do but at the the

0:05:02.180,0:05:08.990 reasons why that 10 sometimes breaks

0:05:06.140,0:05:10.640 down liquor in many ways more subtle

0:05:08.990,0:05:13.550 right like first you have monopoly

0:05:10.640,0:05:15.770 issues like if I'm the only person

0:05:13.550,0:05:18.080 selling wine bottles then I might want

0:05:15.770,0:05:19.580 to sell them at a yeah and a higher

0:05:18.080,0:05:22.420 price than you'd be willing to accept

0:05:19.580,0:05:24.920 because I want to extract more value and

0:05:22.420,0:05:27.200 sometimes the things that matter most to

0:05:24.920,0:05:29.360 society aren't things that we can

0:05:27.200,0:05:31.340 transfer between people from one person

0:05:29.360,0:05:33.230 to another like wine bottles but like

0:05:31.340,0:05:35.540 public goods and like the biggest public

0:05:33.230,0:05:39.170 good of all is sort of is the idea right

0:05:35.540,0:05:40.820 and an idea well if I have an idea and I

0:05:39.170,0:05:45.230 give you the idea I still have the idea

0:05:40.820,0:05:47.240 so it's something that once you release

0:05:45.230,0:05:49.070 it it's out there and there isn't this

0:05:47.240,0:05:50.750 kind of property of that so you know

0:05:49.070,0:05:54.470 should we just pause just briefly to

0:05:50.750,0:05:56.450 talk about what a public good is yeah so

0:05:54.470,0:05:58.220 a public good is technically defined

0:05:56.450,0:06:01.250 within economics many people have an

0:05:58.220,0:06:03.490 intuitive idea as something which is as

0:06:01.250,0:06:05.830 you're stating has this property of

0:06:03.490,0:06:09.020 inexhaustibility mm-hm

0:06:05.830,0:06:10.130 and then the other attribute would be

0:06:09.020,0:06:12.920 excludability

0:06:10.130,0:06:14.360 which is non excludability formal sorry

0:06:12.920,0:06:17.180 nuts non excludability

0:06:14.360,0:06:20.630 sorry the the attribute of excludability

0:06:17.180,0:06:24.910 and is used to define a public good so

0:06:20.630,0:06:27.620 if something is inexhaustible and in

0:06:24.910,0:06:30.520 excludable then it has this weird

0:06:27.620,0:06:33.260 property that even hardline economists

0:06:30.520,0:06:35.540 would agree that the market may fail to

0:06:33.260,0:06:39.110 price in fact will fail to price the

0:06:35.540,0:06:39.409 value to society of that object so there

0:06:39.110,0:06:42.169 is an

0:06:39.409,0:06:44.269 mission within economics that there are

0:06:42.169,0:06:49.519 zones of failure right

0:06:44.269,0:06:52.580 well I guess the kind of the big kind of

0:06:49.519,0:06:54.409 rethinking that needs to happen is that

0:06:52.580,0:06:56.719 there is a long been this kind of

0:06:54.409,0:06:58.429 site-geist to that private goods like

0:06:56.719,0:07:00.050 things that I have and if I give it to

0:06:58.429,0:07:01.819 you I don't have it and you have it are

0:07:00.050,0:07:04.729 the norm and public goods are a rare

0:07:01.819,0:07:06.409 exception but like really public goods

0:07:04.729,0:07:08.149 are pretty darn important right like if

0:07:06.409,0:07:11.179 we didn't have public goods then we'd be

0:07:08.149,0:07:12.829 a trading sticks and B and Bear pelts

0:07:11.179,0:07:15.379 and we basically still be cavemen like

0:07:12.829,0:07:18.519 they're basically the like an army would

0:07:15.379,0:07:20.689 be a public yeah yeah and or me well

0:07:18.519,0:07:23.539 armies are interesting cuz there are

0:07:20.689,0:07:25.279 kind of to us like in a medium scale

0:07:23.539,0:07:26.959 context or a public good and in the

0:07:25.279,0:07:28.519 large-scale context or a public bad

0:07:26.959,0:07:30.469 because if everyone's army is we're

0:07:28.519,0:07:31.729 forced to be cut down by a factor of 10

0:07:30.469,0:07:34.579 like we'd all be better off

0:07:31.729,0:07:36.259 so economics is like really subtle that

0:07:34.579,0:07:40.579 way especially once you have kind of two

0:07:36.259,0:07:42.379 layers of scale I'd play sure now one

0:07:40.579,0:07:45.050 thing that I worry a lot about that

0:07:42.379,0:07:48.919 almost nobody seems to join me in is

0:07:45.050,0:07:51.889 that in our mutual world I don't know

0:07:48.919,0:07:54.769 what to call it of people who are

0:07:51.889,0:07:57.019 experimenting with what I would say the

0:07:54.769,0:08:00.199 mainstream would consider far out ideas

0:07:57.019,0:08:03.649 like radical life extension crypto

0:08:00.199,0:08:06.019 currencies is a you know potentially

0:08:03.649,0:08:08.539 being rival risks with sovereign

0:08:06.019,0:08:11.869 currencies but in our world we talk a

0:08:08.539,0:08:14.239 lot about the abundance economy in a

0:08:11.869,0:08:18.110 world of abundance and I'm terrified of

0:08:14.239,0:08:20.599 a world of abundance because one of the

0:08:18.110,0:08:23.629 properties that software has had is that

0:08:20.599,0:08:25.729 it has replaced physical goods and

0:08:23.629,0:08:30.649 services which have these attributes

0:08:25.729,0:08:33.620 they are not public with small files and

0:08:30.649,0:08:36.649 when a small file is not encrypted it

0:08:33.620,0:08:40.659 has the attributes of a public good and

0:08:36.649,0:08:44.480 therefore value and price can can castle

0:08:40.659,0:08:46.850 that's terrifying because then this

0:08:44.480,0:08:49.370 weird thing of markets which allows us

0:08:46.850,0:08:51.559 respite from dictatorship in somebody

0:08:49.370,0:08:52.970 directing our activities and allows us

0:08:51.559,0:08:55.339 to self-direct goes

0:08:52.970,0:08:58.069 away because things can't be priced

0:08:55.339,0:09:00.379 accurately are you do you have any does

0:08:58.069,0:09:03.769 that have any purchase on your thinking

0:09:00.379,0:09:05.779 yeah so and I think give definitely you

0:09:03.769,0:09:08.060 kind of struck at a very important point

0:09:05.779,0:09:11.149 though I think and if my own framing of

0:09:08.060,0:09:14.449 the point is slightly different no I

0:09:11.149,0:09:16.819 think like first of all like you start

0:09:14.449,0:09:18.680 off by think by realizing that kind of

0:09:16.819,0:09:20.149 private property and things is not

0:09:18.680,0:09:23.029 something that fell out of the sky it's

0:09:20.149,0:09:26.000 a social technology right it's that we

0:09:23.029,0:09:30.560 have these kind of norms that basically

0:09:26.000,0:09:34.100 say oh you kid we will create this kind

0:09:30.560,0:09:35.930 of mapping from objects to people and if

0:09:34.100,0:09:37.519 an object as maps to you then you're

0:09:35.930,0:09:38.810 allowed to do basically whatever the

0:09:37.519,0:09:40.550 hell you want with it and other people

0:09:38.810,0:09:41.060 cannot do anything with it without your

0:09:40.550,0:09:44.980 permission

0:09:41.060,0:09:47.240 and if that concept did not exist then

0:09:44.980,0:09:50.149 physical objects would be public goods

0:09:47.240,0:09:51.829 right because like if there's a klein

0:09:50.149,0:09:53.600 bottle over here the Quine bottle would

0:09:51.829,0:09:56.629 be there but like really anyone could

0:09:53.600,0:09:58.759 take it and if you produce wine bottles

0:09:56.629,0:10:00.230 then like you're not producing something

0:09:58.759,0:10:01.699 for yourself you're producing something

0:10:00.230,0:10:04.180 for pretty much different the first

0:10:01.699,0:10:07.370 person who comes along and grabs it and

0:10:04.180,0:10:10.370 so property rights right are this kind

0:10:07.370,0:10:14.000 of social technology that helps make a

0:10:10.370,0:10:15.410 private good economy is tractable and we

0:10:14.000,0:10:17.149 could consider making social

0:10:15.410,0:10:18.769 technologies to make public great

0:10:17.149,0:10:21.309 economies tractable right like the

0:10:18.769,0:10:24.079 existence of public goods by itself is

0:10:21.309,0:10:26.360 and it's not good or bad like arguably

0:10:24.079,0:10:28.040 it's even good because it means that

0:10:26.360,0:10:30.649 people can't cooperate with each other

0:10:28.040,0:10:33.620 on such large scales the bad thing is

0:10:30.649,0:10:35.120 that we don't really have good tools for

0:10:33.620,0:10:37.819 handling it and specifically we don't

0:10:35.120,0:10:42.620 have good tools for handling yet that

0:10:37.819,0:10:45.410 managed to simultaneously avoid both not

0:10:42.620,0:10:48.199 giving good results and like basically

0:10:45.410,0:10:51.230 being centralized in dictatorial and so

0:10:48.199,0:10:53.389 this is where my interest in radical

0:10:51.230,0:10:55.160 exchange comes in so this was this a

0:10:53.389,0:10:57.949 movement that was started by gone while

0:10:55.160,0:11:00.889 a couple of years ago when he wrote this

0:10:57.949,0:11:02.630 a radical markets book and he advanced

0:11:00.889,0:11:04.639 some of his proposals like harberger

0:11:02.630,0:11:05.860 taxes and a quadratic voting were the

0:11:04.639,0:11:09.670 ones that

0:11:05.860,0:11:12.579 and of the most popular and the and of

0:11:09.670,0:11:15.750 the core and if idea behind the ideas

0:11:12.579,0:11:18.160 basically as like let's creates

0:11:15.750,0:11:21.279 structures of kind of norms and

0:11:18.160,0:11:22.690 incentives that try to have the best

0:11:21.279,0:11:27.339 properties that we can get out of

0:11:22.690,0:11:30.010 markets but do you do so without like

0:11:27.339,0:11:32.200 basically economically breaking in the

0:11:30.010,0:11:34.839 way that we know and if existing

0:11:32.200,0:11:36.730 property right systems do once you enter

0:11:34.839,0:11:38.350 a world where none of everything that

0:11:36.730,0:11:40.839 you build just inherently affects

0:11:38.350,0:11:42.670 millions of people well this is this is

0:11:40.839,0:11:45.760 an interesting perspective you of course

0:11:42.670,0:11:48.490 are famous for implementing this

0:11:45.760,0:11:50.709 aetherium protocol but before we ever

0:11:48.490,0:11:53.829 get to computer protocols there are sort

0:11:50.709,0:11:55.450 of legal and structural protocols that

0:11:53.829,0:11:57.820 we impose upon ourselves in the form of

0:11:55.450,0:12:01.570 government and markets that are

0:11:57.820,0:12:06.089 subordinate to government and there's a

0:12:01.570,0:12:09.390 weird way in which you may start a

0:12:06.089,0:12:12.610 process by which you write down rules

0:12:09.390,0:12:15.370 for how a society should function but

0:12:12.610,0:12:17.589 once those rules are written down you

0:12:15.370,0:12:19.930 may discover all sorts of unintended

0:12:17.589,0:12:23.110 properties of that rule set and there's

0:12:19.930,0:12:26.860 a real question can we actually unhook

0:12:23.110,0:12:32.290 ourselves from the killer app that is

0:12:26.860,0:12:34.209 capitalism or American democracy and if

0:12:32.290,0:12:39.279 we start to realize that that app is

0:12:34.209,0:12:41.470 running out of control I guess in for

0:12:39.279,0:12:44.230 and of myself as a enough social

0:12:41.470,0:12:46.029 technologist and I definitely don't

0:12:44.230,0:12:48.370 think that we should be kind of

0:12:46.029,0:12:51.550 overturning entire countries with the

0:12:48.370,0:12:53.459 new mechanisms overnight I think and I

0:12:51.550,0:12:58.360 was insinuating oh definitely I think

0:12:53.459,0:13:00.490 like that's figuring out how to kind of

0:12:58.360,0:13:02.500 solve like grand problems of humanity is

0:13:00.490,0:13:04.690 a long-term goal but I mean sure term

0:13:02.500,0:13:08.320 goals are there is definitely can make

0:13:04.690,0:13:11.610 better right so I and this is actually

0:13:08.320,0:13:13.870 part of why I find a cryptocurrency and

0:13:11.610,0:13:17.140 blockchains interesting because they are

0:13:13.870,0:13:18.810 in a lot of ways this ideal ground for

0:13:17.140,0:13:22.500 economic experimentation

0:13:18.810,0:13:26.310 different types great so I to give one

0:13:22.500,0:13:28.590 concrete example and in so one of the

0:13:26.310,0:13:30.360 ideas that go on while and myself have

0:13:28.590,0:13:33.050 come up with and are pushing forward is

0:13:30.360,0:13:36.510 something called quadratic funding and

0:13:33.050,0:13:39.779 the way that quadratic funding works is

0:13:36.510,0:13:41.970 roughly this right so you have a central

0:13:39.779,0:13:43.470 kind of pool of funding and you could

0:13:41.970,0:13:44.820 imagine this coming from a government

0:13:43.470,0:13:46.620 you could imagine this coming from

0:13:44.820,0:13:50.330 wealthy donors you could imagine it just

0:13:46.620,0:13:52.740 in being put together by some like

0:13:50.330,0:13:55.860 crypto economic protocol it could come

0:13:52.740,0:13:58.770 from anywhere and then you allow people

0:13:55.860,0:14:01.410 to basically set up projects and you

0:13:58.770,0:14:03.180 what people say I have a project here is

0:14:01.410,0:14:05.700 something that I'm doing and if you like

0:14:03.180,0:14:07.980 this then you can donate to me and give

0:14:05.700,0:14:10.529 what people donate to projects and then

0:14:07.980,0:14:13.440 the core of the mechanism is basically

0:14:10.529,0:14:15.120 that if there is a projects and multiple

0:14:13.440,0:14:17.700 people donate to so there's some

0:14:15.120,0:14:20.880 projects you donate to it and someone

0:14:17.700,0:14:23.370 else donates to it as well then your

0:14:20.880,0:14:24.839 donation doesn't just benefit you it

0:14:23.370,0:14:26.339 also benefits the other person and the

0:14:24.839,0:14:28.740 other person's donation doesn't just

0:14:26.339,0:14:31.560 benefit them it also benefits you and so

0:14:28.740,0:14:33.180 to kind of counteract that kind of

0:14:31.560,0:14:35.700 market failure the mechanism basically

0:14:33.180,0:14:37.650 says well we're gonna multiply the

0:14:35.700,0:14:38.850 effect of your donation by two and

0:14:37.650,0:14:41.790 multiply the effect of the other

0:14:38.850,0:14:43.380 person's donation by two and so now both

0:14:41.790,0:14:45.510 of your incentives are kind of aligned

0:14:43.380,0:14:47.430 with the whole and you extend this

0:14:45.510,0:14:48.990 mechanism so instead of supporting two

0:14:47.430,0:14:51.150 people it supports an arbitrary number

0:14:48.990,0:14:53.430 of people and you kind of calculate

0:14:51.150,0:14:57.630 these subsidies across all possible

0:14:53.430,0:14:59.370 pairs of people and what you get is this

0:14:57.630,0:15:00.930 formula that basically says you let

0:14:59.370,0:15:02.820 people donate to different projects you

0:15:00.930,0:15:04.890 look at how many people donated and how

0:15:02.820,0:15:06.870 much money you've donated and based on

0:15:04.890,0:15:09.330 this from the central pool of funding

0:15:06.870,0:15:11.880 you give this extra subsidy and so it

0:15:09.330,0:15:16.650 basically is like a market for public

0:15:11.880,0:15:18.480 goods right and in the etherium

0:15:16.650,0:15:20.190 ecosystem there is something called that

0:15:18.480,0:15:22.440 get coin grants where we've basically

0:15:20.190,0:15:25.589 started like trying to use this

0:15:22.440,0:15:27.510 mechanism to fund public goods inside

0:15:25.589,0:15:30.209 the etherium ecosystem right so this

0:15:27.510,0:15:32.670 could be implementations of the etherium

0:15:30.209,0:15:34.320 protocol it could be scaling solutions

0:15:32.670,0:15:37.530 could be wallets it could be educational

0:15:34.320,0:15:39.830 resources and we've had a and of tests

0:15:37.530,0:15:42.120 around recently with about and if

0:15:39.830,0:15:44.340 $200,000 in this central matching pool

0:15:42.120,0:15:47.010 and it recently finished and you can go

0:15:44.340,0:15:49.410 to a get coin dot Co slash grants to see

0:15:47.010,0:15:51.210 the results and we got contributions

0:15:49.410,0:15:52.890 from hundreds of people and the results

0:15:51.210,0:15:56.750 a gave were actually pretty reasonable

0:15:52.890,0:16:00.240 so in tests yeah and and so I I think

0:15:56.750,0:16:03.360 cerium could have a lot of value is and

0:16:00.240,0:16:05.150 just being a test net in bed for and

0:16:03.360,0:16:07.980 decentralized governance and

0:16:05.150,0:16:10.200 decentralized public good funding

0:16:07.980,0:16:12.360 infrastructure of this kind well I think

0:16:10.200,0:16:13.860 that that's fascinating I guess one of

0:16:12.360,0:16:16.620 the ways in which I would understand

0:16:13.860,0:16:18.570 that is you know when my wife who's an

0:16:16.620,0:16:21.150 economist and I talk about this stuff we

0:16:18.570,0:16:23.250 often talk about a market democracy has

0:16:21.150,0:16:25.230 these two voting systems one is one

0:16:23.250,0:16:25.980 dollar one vote and the other is one

0:16:25.230,0:16:27.480 person one vote

0:16:25.980,0:16:30.530 theoretically anyway even if that's

0:16:27.480,0:16:33.030 honor only in the debris I and like

0:16:30.530,0:16:35.040 liberal democracy does this horrible

0:16:33.030,0:16:36.570 thing of like treating these s opposite

0:16:35.040,0:16:37.920 poles where something is either one or

0:16:36.570,0:16:39.270 the other and they're and they're often

0:16:37.920,0:16:41.370 fighting each other one really

0:16:39.270,0:16:41.700 everything's a spectrum and I like that

0:16:41.370,0:16:43.470 a lot

0:16:41.700,0:16:45.870 I mean an another thing that we've been

0:16:43.470,0:16:48.410 discussing recently and this again is

0:16:45.870,0:16:51.510 sort of drink with with Pia Milani is

0:16:48.410,0:16:54.060 thinking about the Chicago approximation

0:16:51.510,0:16:56.430 you've got some reality that's

0:16:54.060,0:16:59.220 incredibly nonlinear and complicated and

0:16:56.430,0:17:01.110 then weirdly yeah in a one of these

0:16:59.220,0:17:03.990 famous instances where the map is not

0:17:01.110,0:17:07.310 the territory you take this incredibly

0:17:03.990,0:17:09.210 simplified world where agents have this

0:17:07.310,0:17:10.830 properties you can't even believe you

0:17:09.210,0:17:12.990 would ascribe to a human being where you

0:17:10.830,0:17:16.080 thought Homo economicus and you it's

0:17:12.990,0:17:18.270 perfectly rational and it it has all of

0:17:16.080,0:17:20.610 these characteristics like an automaton

0:17:18.270,0:17:24.060 that only makes rational decisions and

0:17:20.610,0:17:26.280 then you impose that like through law

0:17:24.060,0:17:29.550 and economics programs and suddenly

0:17:26.280,0:17:32.280 you've distorted your society by taking

0:17:29.550,0:17:34.530 the map as the territory so seriously

0:17:32.280,0:17:38.720 that you don't realize that you're

0:17:34.530,0:17:44.040 destroying something and distorting yeah

0:17:38.720,0:17:46.500 no that's definitely and I think it's a

0:17:44.040,0:17:49.140 social it's one approximation

0:17:46.500,0:17:50.820 and you mean we're never going to have

0:17:49.140,0:17:52.860 approximations that are perfect because

0:17:50.820,0:17:54.210 the world is just so we're glad to hear

0:17:52.860,0:17:58.169 that yeah and the world is just so

0:17:54.210,0:18:01.140 complicated and so even rapidly changing

0:17:58.169,0:18:03.419 in a 21st century like aprox in all

0:18:01.140,0:18:05.070 approximations are bullshit but like you

0:18:03.419,0:18:06.480 have to find a couple of good ones that

0:18:05.070,0:18:07.980 work reasonably well and make progress

0:18:06.480,0:18:09.419 for us and I think that one of the

0:18:07.980,0:18:11.760 things that's unfairly done to

0:18:09.419,0:18:13.830 cryptocurrencies is that we expect them

0:18:11.760,0:18:16.919 to solve all of the problems that

0:18:13.830,0:18:19.110 already cropped up yes in our forms of

0:18:16.919,0:18:21.870 governance and our forms of currency in

0:18:19.110,0:18:24.559 exchange in court systems and that what

0:18:21.870,0:18:27.090 we should be asking of them is to be

0:18:24.559,0:18:30.570 improvements or to augment mm-hmm

0:18:27.090,0:18:34.470 already existing systems now one of the

0:18:30.570,0:18:37.380 odd things about governance is we could

0:18:34.470,0:18:41.400 view you as in some sense starting a

0:18:37.380,0:18:44.940 rival virtual country that has a legal

0:18:41.400,0:18:46.919 system because the etherium I don't know

0:18:44.940,0:18:48.390 what to call it Network platform

0:18:46.919,0:18:50.610 protocol

0:18:48.390,0:18:52.710 yeah rules coins and it has the right to

0:18:50.610,0:18:55.409 reassign those coins and not only that

0:18:52.710,0:18:56.580 but it has a stand-in for the legal

0:18:55.409,0:19:03.059 system in the form of what are called

0:18:56.580,0:19:06.090 smart contracts mmm-hmm normally a we

0:19:03.059,0:19:08.400 have this concept in governance I guess

0:19:06.090,0:19:10.559 it goes back to Weber that a government

0:19:08.400,0:19:12.960 is supposed to be a monopoly on violence

0:19:10.559,0:19:15.570 which is an odd definition that you

0:19:12.960,0:19:18.330 recover the concept of government from

0:19:15.570,0:19:21.059 monopolizing violence and then you you

0:19:18.330,0:19:23.240 sort of unearth and and unpack all of

0:19:21.059,0:19:25.980 the features of government from that one

0:19:23.240,0:19:28.890 generating function in some sense a

0:19:25.980,0:19:31.890 cryptocurrency and smart contracts

0:19:28.890,0:19:35.220 derive from math rather than violence

0:19:31.890,0:19:37.799 they derive from math and social

0:19:35.220,0:19:39.630 consensus right I love the fact that I

0:19:37.799,0:19:41.549 was gonna get to that but I know I guess

0:19:39.630,0:19:43.440 this is important right because like for

0:19:41.549,0:19:45.299 example you know you have the Bitcoin

0:19:43.440,0:19:47.130 blockchain and then you have the

0:19:45.299,0:19:49.500 litecoin blockchain which operates under

0:19:47.130,0:19:51.090 ik almost exactly the set at the same

0:19:49.500,0:19:53.730 set of rules as the Bitcoin blockchain

0:19:51.090,0:19:55.500 and yet the Bitcoin blockchain has a

0:19:53.730,0:19:56.760 hundred million dollar market cap and

0:19:55.500,0:19:58.289 the white coin blockchain has a three

0:19:56.760,0:20:00.510 billion dollar market cap or something

0:19:58.289,0:20:04.110 like that and much less usage so

0:20:00.510,0:20:06.750 like blog Chin's are definitely not just

0:20:04.110,0:20:08.730 math and technology math and technology

0:20:06.750,0:20:10.560 are the substrate and maybe in the same

0:20:08.730,0:20:12.090 way that the military is like the

0:20:10.560,0:20:15.600 substrate of keeping a country together

0:20:12.090,0:20:18.600 but they're including police force yeah

0:20:15.600,0:20:19.740 exactly but like they're the substrate

0:20:18.600,0:20:22.230 but they're not the country right the

0:20:19.740,0:20:25.020 country is the community well and this

0:20:22.230,0:20:28.620 goes to what I would love to get into

0:20:25.020,0:20:31.230 you with love to get into with you which

0:20:28.620,0:20:34.260 is the way in which different utopian

0:20:31.230,0:20:37.230 dreams collide in the space of

0:20:34.260,0:20:40.110 cryptocurrencies so for example there

0:20:37.230,0:20:42.810 are some dreams that may sound more like

0:20:40.110,0:20:44.880 what I assume you may be active in the

0:20:42.810,0:20:46.710 effective altruism community is that a

0:20:44.880,0:20:48.300 possibility yeah

0:20:46.710,0:20:51.720 which tries to figure how to do the most

0:20:48.300,0:20:55.110 good to do good efficiently rather than

0:20:51.720,0:20:57.750 sanctimoniously there are other people

0:20:55.110,0:21:00.420 who have this idea of I just want to

0:20:57.750,0:21:01.950 retreat from other human beings and I

0:21:00.420,0:21:04.080 want to be left alone it want to be

0:21:01.950,0:21:06.900 taxed I don't to be told what to do very

0:21:04.080,0:21:08.550 strong libertarian perspective sometimes

0:21:06.900,0:21:10.440 those people are the same people there's

0:21:08.550,0:21:12.000 two kinds of libertarians there's well

0:21:10.440,0:21:14.100 there's many ways that's what Albertans

0:21:12.000,0:21:15.750 is the two kinds but like there's the

0:21:14.100,0:21:17.640 leave me alone type and then there's the

0:21:15.750,0:21:21.720 kind of conquer the world type right the

0:21:17.640,0:21:24.330 kind that kind of relishes seeing fiat

0:21:21.720,0:21:28.620 currencies be destroyed and replaced by

0:21:24.330,0:21:32.070 Bitcoin and it's kind of you know

0:21:28.620,0:21:35.790 creating a thousand a year kind of reign

0:21:32.070,0:21:40.020 of sound money that in I mean I

0:21:35.790,0:21:42.000 generally have this kind of instincts

0:21:40.020,0:21:43.890 that like when someone says that like we

0:21:42.000,0:21:45.630 should impose a lot of short-term

0:21:43.890,0:21:47.160 disruption and harm on the entire world

0:21:45.630,0:21:48.240 for the sake of some nebulous a long

0:21:47.160,0:21:51.000 term gain that's something to be

0:21:48.240,0:21:53.400 skeptical of but so I'm not gonna rely

0:21:51.000,0:21:55.530 on the word skeptical mmm-hmm you're

0:21:53.400,0:21:59.010 using an extreme form of understatement

0:21:55.530,0:22:02.730 yeah yeah and so I mean I'm definitely

0:21:59.010,0:22:04.910 not in in the camp that had of actively

0:22:02.730,0:22:09.060 relishes like fiat currency is being

0:22:04.910,0:22:11.250 destroyed but meanders and I definitely

0:22:09.060,0:22:13.530 don't think that all bitcoiners do it

0:22:11.250,0:22:17.010 like there is some that do see it as

0:22:13.530,0:22:18.840 and of a something that's supposed to

0:22:17.010,0:22:21.180 coexist and something that's supposed to

0:22:18.840,0:22:22.680 provide a check and balance against the

0:22:21.180,0:22:25.770 government's monopoly on issuing money

0:22:22.680,0:22:27.240 without replacing it entirely so you

0:22:25.770,0:22:28.680 know there are there's definitely enough

0:22:27.240,0:22:31.200 different visions within individual

0:22:28.680,0:22:34.230 communities there's different visions

0:22:31.200,0:22:36.570 between different communities you know

0:22:34.230,0:22:38.610 in it there's it's not just visions

0:22:36.570,0:22:40.080 about what cryptocurrencies should do to

0:22:38.610,0:22:42.600 the world it's also in your visions

0:22:40.080,0:22:44.220 about like what how cryptocurrencies

0:22:42.600,0:22:47.370 should work internally and what they

0:22:44.220,0:22:50.060 should do to each other so like that in

0:22:47.370,0:22:52.830 that sense I guess like a

0:22:50.060,0:22:54.780 cryptocurrencies are interesting in in

0:22:52.830,0:22:56.250 ball chains not just because of like

0:22:54.780,0:22:58.830 what they can do in the world but also

0:22:56.250,0:23:01.470 just as this and if microcosm of the

0:22:58.830,0:23:03.630 world all into themselves I mean like we

0:23:01.470,0:23:06.060 talked about country virtual countries

0:23:03.630,0:23:07.440 but you know there there's many virtual

0:23:06.060,0:23:09.240 countries now there's over fourteen

0:23:07.440,0:23:12.930 hundred on coin market cap and they have

0:23:09.240,0:23:16.050 some analog of you do think of them as

0:23:12.930,0:23:18.950 virtual countries it's singing all

0:23:16.050,0:23:21.210 models are bullshit but some are useful

0:23:18.950,0:23:28.110 but to the extent of the country is a

0:23:21.210,0:23:32.240 sensible thing to yes yeah yeah yeah so

0:23:28.110,0:23:38.700 in that world where we're dealing with

0:23:32.240,0:23:41.490 often very radical individualism and a

0:23:38.700,0:23:44.880 very strong sense that there is

0:23:41.490,0:23:48.060 something wrong with the coercive aspect

0:23:44.880,0:23:51.350 of a government do you worry that

0:23:48.060,0:23:57.290 something that you have given birth to

0:23:51.350,0:24:02.240 may start to behave in very different

0:23:57.290,0:24:06.270 ways than you would ever want definitely

0:24:02.240,0:24:07.860 probably the closest that we've seen to

0:24:06.270,0:24:10.410 things like this happening already would

0:24:07.860,0:24:14.460 be the the initial coin offering a boom

0:24:10.410,0:24:16.950 in the 2017 and 2018 and like basically

0:24:14.460,0:24:19.020 if what happens and there was that

0:24:16.950,0:24:21.870 people saw that cryptocurrencies are

0:24:19.020,0:24:23.580 something that could potentially had a

0:24:21.870,0:24:27.450 very high value and so people started

0:24:23.580,0:24:29.460 saying oh like I'm raising money

0:24:27.450,0:24:31.200 anyone come and give me fifty million

0:24:29.460,0:24:32.669 dollars and I'm gonna build a

0:24:31.200,0:24:34.200 cryptocurrency and I'm gonna make it

0:24:32.669,0:24:36.600 great and I'll turn your 50 million

0:24:34.200,0:24:43.440 dollars into 50 billion going guaranteed

0:24:36.600,0:24:45.149 and this like and like it's complicated

0:24:43.440,0:24:47.370 right because I mean on the one hand

0:24:45.149,0:24:48.929 like the possibility of a kind of

0:24:47.370,0:24:52.679 raising money and using it to fund

0:24:48.929,0:24:54.899 cryptocurrency development like it's it

0:24:52.679,0:24:56.610 did a lot of good right began like in

0:24:54.899,0:24:59.760 general like the open source community

0:24:56.610,0:25:01.889 it's and it kind of acutely suffers from

0:24:59.760,0:25:03.659 this have public goods challenge that we

0:25:01.889,0:25:06.600 talked about because an open source

0:25:03.659,0:25:09.299 software is a very public good and like

0:25:06.600,0:25:10.860 we saw some very public and if splats

0:25:09.299,0:25:13.529 involving open source software being

0:25:10.860,0:25:15.029 under maintains like the CloudFlare and

0:25:13.529,0:25:17.610 of issues a couple years back when it

0:25:15.029,0:25:19.320 turned out that's an open ssl library it

0:25:17.610,0:25:20.909 was like really really under maintained

0:25:19.320,0:25:23.130 despite billions of dollars of value

0:25:20.909,0:25:24.899 depending on it and with

0:25:23.130,0:25:26.100 cryptocurrencies suddenly you could make

0:25:24.899,0:25:28.799 things that are completely open-source

0:25:26.100,0:25:31.970 that through coins do have a funding

0:25:28.799,0:25:34.919 mechanism and like you know this has

0:25:31.970,0:25:36.179 massive massively accelerated the

0:25:34.919,0:25:38.250 development of many kinds of

0:25:36.179,0:25:40.740 cryptography zero-knowledge proofs and

0:25:38.250,0:25:42.750 peer-to-peer networking a lot of other

0:25:40.740,0:25:45.539 things but at this on the other hand

0:25:42.750,0:25:49.200 like it's also given rise to this kind

0:25:45.539,0:25:50.340 of speculation and in many cases the

0:25:49.200,0:25:53.490 projects turned out to be outright

0:25:50.340,0:25:55.470 fraudulent right but it's a really

0:25:53.490,0:25:57.419 delicious and weird situation I haven't

0:25:55.470,0:26:00.779 asked you about it yet but you're I

0:25:57.419,0:26:03.590 presume that your net worth crashed a

0:26:00.779,0:26:05.820 great deal we got run up and then came

0:26:03.590,0:26:10.039 came back yeah

0:26:05.820,0:26:17.429 and were you happy in any way about that

0:26:10.039,0:26:19.289 relieved relieved yeah so when the right

0:26:17.429,0:26:24.299 at the top of the big bubble like in

0:26:19.289,0:26:27.539 December 2017 when yeah good coin was

0:26:24.299,0:26:30.299 hitting 20,000 eath was hitting 1,400 I

0:26:27.539,0:26:32.880 mean I made this tweet and a series of

0:26:30.299,0:26:34.080 tweets and that and it became somewhat

0:26:32.880,0:26:36.419 famous one in the space where I

0:26:34.080,0:26:38.309 basically said the cryptocurrency space

0:26:36.419,0:26:41.040 has reached half a trillion dollars does

0:26:38.309,0:26:43.200 does it deserve it like do the thing

0:26:41.040,0:26:46.080 that it's actually accomplished like

0:26:43.200,0:26:49.020 hold a candle to the promises that my

0:26:46.080,0:26:51.450 market is ascribing to it and I mean the

0:26:49.020,0:26:54.630 subtext of my answer is not yet and that

0:26:51.450,0:26:58.620 was proven very right yeah I fairly

0:26:54.630,0:27:04.640 quickly and but you didn't short it did

0:26:58.620,0:27:07.410 you so the iana I did can you get and

0:27:04.640,0:27:09.780 get the etherium foundation to sell

0:27:07.410,0:27:11.520 about seventy thousand eath like

0:27:09.780,0:27:14.400 basically at the top and that's doubled

0:27:11.520,0:27:16.860 our runway now so there was one good

0:27:14.400,0:27:19.380 decision that had a land that had a lot

0:27:16.860,0:27:25.200 of impact but it did not short I should

0:27:19.380,0:27:29.540 say that I was weirdly somewhat relieved

0:27:25.200,0:27:34.260 as well I view that the innovation of

0:27:29.540,0:27:37.290 decentralized transactions and the bid

0:27:34.260,0:27:39.570 and you know it's hard for me to say

0:27:37.290,0:27:41.490 because I actually I'm convinced that

0:27:39.570,0:27:43.230 the blockchain should be an intermediate

0:27:41.490,0:27:46.500 state and should not be the permanent

0:27:43.230,0:27:50.190 version of decentralized computing angry

0:27:46.500,0:27:52.760 okay but I thought that that was such an

0:27:50.190,0:27:57.900 amazing innovation that you could have a

0:27:52.760,0:28:00.390 locally enforced mechanism without a

0:27:57.900,0:28:03.060 centralized Authority but with a global

0:28:00.390,0:28:08.610 ledger unfair which which I see if it is

0:28:03.060,0:28:10.710 a point of intellectual failure that in

0:28:08.610,0:28:12.990 some sense you're mirroring the

0:28:10.710,0:28:17.370 transactions of the physical world so

0:28:12.990,0:28:20.880 for example for those listening at home

0:28:17.370,0:28:23.430 who don't have a visual here Vitalik has

0:28:20.880,0:28:25.650 several glass bottles next to him were

0:28:23.430,0:28:29.760 he to give one to me which he shouldn't

0:28:25.650,0:28:31.980 do right now but the idea would be that

0:28:29.760,0:28:35.220 it would no longer be in his space and

0:28:31.980,0:28:40.640 it would be in mine and that property of

0:28:35.220,0:28:43.410 Adams has been somewhat mirrored in

0:28:40.640,0:28:46.770 Bitcoin and blockchain and aetherium

0:28:43.410,0:28:49.200 transactions I mean this is like the

0:28:46.770,0:28:51.600 concept of like money as a thing right

0:28:49.200,0:28:53.910 the and if the scarcity of the 21

0:28:51.600,0:28:54.870 million limit if I give you five coins I

0:28:53.910,0:28:57.240 have five of us and you

0:28:54.870,0:28:58.710 five more right and so the idea is that

0:28:57.240,0:29:02.370 it's a what you're doing is you're

0:28:58.710,0:29:04.680 porting conservation laws into from the

0:29:02.370,0:29:09.450 physical layer into the logical layer

0:29:04.680,0:29:11.790 right and yeah and I guess and if to

0:29:09.450,0:29:13.710 some extent kind of reflects the kind of

0:29:11.790,0:29:16.920 very deeply enough Austrian economic

0:29:13.710,0:29:19.700 libertarian and origins of the the space

0:29:16.920,0:29:24.510 way better back in the end of 2009 to

0:29:19.700,0:29:27.690 2013 days I mean creating like digital

0:29:24.510,0:29:29.250 gold was pretty much the Fukien Digital

0:29:27.690,0:29:32.580 payment system was the first use case

0:29:29.250,0:29:34.559 but and I definitely think that like we

0:29:32.580,0:29:36.120 can and should be thinking about point

0:29:34.559,0:29:38.460 systems that work in ways other than

0:29:36.120,0:29:41.030 money well I agree with that and I also

0:29:38.460,0:29:44.040 think that it isn't digital gold because

0:29:41.030,0:29:46.620 as the saying goes you know gold or

0:29:44.040,0:29:49.260 money has no stench and that the

0:29:46.620,0:29:51.480 blockchain is this bizarre difference

0:29:49.260,0:29:55.230 with the physical world and that it is a

0:29:51.480,0:29:58.320 distributed ledger that may be somewhat

0:29:55.230,0:30:01.260 anonymous but it still gives the history

0:29:58.320,0:30:05.750 like if I hand you a dollar and and you

0:30:01.260,0:30:09.090 don't have access to any particular

0:30:05.750,0:30:11.160 means of analyzing whose DNA is on that

0:30:09.090,0:30:14.790 dollar you have no idea where it's been

0:30:11.160,0:30:17.040 and these that is not that is violated

0:30:14.790,0:30:20.070 by the current block chain type

0:30:17.040,0:30:22.350 implementations yes so it isn't a

0:30:20.070,0:30:25.770 complete port of the physical world into

0:30:22.350,0:30:27.690 a digital but it is a an astounding one

0:30:25.770,0:30:30.240 and I guess I get very frustrated with

0:30:27.690,0:30:32.220 the economics questions like well what's

0:30:30.240,0:30:34.340 good what's it good for where's the

0:30:32.220,0:30:37.350 killer app I mean we have all of

0:30:34.340,0:30:40.740 whatever's left of human civilization to

0:30:37.350,0:30:42.929 figure out what this thing is meant to

0:30:40.740,0:30:44.490 do you know and I'm not very worried

0:30:42.929,0:30:46.530 that we were not going to figure it out

0:30:44.490,0:30:48.360 I mean we're going to figure it out

0:30:46.530,0:30:49.860 sooner or later because a conservation

0:30:48.360,0:30:53.429 law and digital space is just too

0:30:49.860,0:30:56.100 valuable is that wrong are you worried

0:30:53.429,0:30:58.170 at all about the search for like I I

0:30:56.100,0:30:59.640 just hate this question you know where's

0:30:58.170,0:31:02.760 that where's the killer app and I'm

0:30:59.640,0:31:05.400 thinking chill out man this is an

0:31:02.760,0:31:08.130 astounding intellectual achievement what

0:31:05.400,0:31:11.700 is that wrong yeah and I say

0:31:08.130,0:31:14.669 there's definitely a and a long time to

0:31:11.700,0:31:16.530 go and they think you know the apps will

0:31:14.669,0:31:18.500 come you know there's the ones that are

0:31:16.530,0:31:21.630 coming right now are basically a kind of

0:31:18.500,0:31:24.900 financial but I think I mean that's kind

0:31:21.630,0:31:26.760 of true just in part because the finance

0:31:24.900,0:31:28.950 the existing financial system is just

0:31:26.760,0:31:31.830 like so ready and waiting there to be

0:31:28.950,0:31:34.860 disrupted event in like in the long term

0:31:31.830,0:31:42.030 like there's there's it's disrupted and

0:31:34.860,0:31:43.470 polite term for destroyed you choose but

0:31:42.030,0:31:46.470 I mean there's something interesting

0:31:43.470,0:31:53.210 here you're 25 years old every bit of

0:31:46.470,0:31:58.289 your adult life is post 2008 mm-hmm and

0:31:53.210,0:32:01.559 to be 25 years old and in charge of a

0:31:58.289,0:32:03.270 financial ecosystem to the extent that

0:32:01.559,0:32:05.400 anyone is in charge of etherium and I

0:32:03.270,0:32:07.350 don't want to claim that you are sitting

0:32:05.400,0:32:11.820 there running and making all these

0:32:07.350,0:32:14.850 decisions that's an astounding thing

0:32:11.820,0:32:19.429 that that this has fallen to somebody

0:32:14.850,0:32:23.250 who whose adult life has post the crash

0:32:19.429,0:32:25.230 hmm do you think about that at all that

0:32:23.250,0:32:28.020 you don't have the same associations the

0:32:25.230,0:32:30.690 rest of us do with markets when they

0:32:28.020,0:32:32.340 were claimed to be working well like

0:32:30.690,0:32:34.380 during the during the era of the Great

0:32:32.340,0:32:39.840 Moderation supposedly when volatility

0:32:34.380,0:32:42.210 was banished yeah 17:12 right so one

0:32:39.840,0:32:44.010 thing that I kind of when we realized

0:32:42.210,0:32:46.289 the recently that I found interesting is

0:32:44.010,0:32:48.030 that there like there aren't kind of two

0:32:46.289,0:32:51.470 tribes here there's to be tribes right

0:32:48.030,0:32:56.340 and what I mean by this is that there's

0:32:51.470,0:32:59.039 the tribe that says markets are great

0:32:56.340,0:33:01.169 and there's the tribe that says markets

0:32:59.039,0:33:02.280 are bad and like we should move to more

0:33:01.169,0:33:05.429 things don't look like political

0:33:02.280,0:33:08.100 mechanisms but then if you look at kind

0:33:05.429,0:33:10.190 of the zeitgeist that's kind of fairly

0:33:08.100,0:33:12.210 popular in the cryptocurrencies space

0:33:10.190,0:33:16.070 definitely even still now to a big

0:33:12.210,0:33:19.559 extent it's that markets are great but

0:33:16.070,0:33:22.020 the thing that existed and exists like

0:33:19.559,0:33:26.010 isn't markets and

0:33:22.020,0:33:28.260 so yes like there's people who are pro

0:33:26.010,0:33:29.910 market and who see ahead of the existing

0:33:28.260,0:33:31.560 financial system as being that and

0:33:29.910,0:33:33.420 there's people who are pro market at

0:33:31.560,0:33:35.640 receive the existing financial system as

0:33:33.420,0:33:36.930 being like yet another one of the

0:33:35.640,0:33:39.660 perversions of that that needs to be

0:33:36.930,0:33:43.260 overcome well it's odd because I would

0:33:39.660,0:33:47.010 love to fix our democracy I'd love to

0:33:43.260,0:33:49.410 fix our markets but I am I have to say I

0:33:47.010,0:33:54.150 believe that I have grown up in a an

0:33:49.410,0:33:56.100 approximately 50 year bubble which the

0:33:54.150,0:34:00.770 Silent Generation and then the boomers

0:33:56.100,0:34:03.900 presided over and my own read is that

0:34:00.770,0:34:06.780 because of their inability to figure out

0:34:03.900,0:34:09.300 sufficient innovation to take over from

0:34:06.780,0:34:12.840 the previously innovative system that

0:34:09.300,0:34:15.360 the world of human expertise has been

0:34:12.840,0:34:17.790 almost completely contaminated by

0:34:15.360,0:34:21.270 special pleading and political economy

0:34:17.790,0:34:23.780 so that many of us who don't have a

0:34:21.270,0:34:28.620 particularly Austrian or libertarian

0:34:23.780,0:34:32.159 bent are just sick to death of being

0:34:28.620,0:34:34.010 lied to by people claim to be Nobel

0:34:32.159,0:34:37.679 laureates in economics yep

0:34:34.010,0:34:39.840 do you have any emotional connection to

0:34:37.679,0:34:42.860 you hmm

0:34:39.840,0:34:45.960 like I feel like I'm lied to about

0:34:42.860,0:34:47.370 almost almost you know the doctors are

0:34:45.960,0:34:48.390 lying the lawyers are lying the

0:34:47.370,0:34:52.010 accountants are lying

0:34:48.390,0:34:55.230 the extraction companies are lying and

0:34:52.010,0:34:57.510 it's not because of a million different

0:34:55.230,0:34:59.700 reasons it's because growth ran out and

0:34:57.510,0:35:03.000 our whole society is predicated on a

0:34:59.700,0:35:06.030 need for economic growth yeah no there's

0:35:03.000,0:35:07.710 definitely and of things that are that

0:35:06.030,0:35:10.320 have changed in us and assess them

0:35:07.710,0:35:11.490 that's just not keeping up and doesn't

0:35:10.320,0:35:16.130 and doesn't understand that there is

0:35:11.490,0:35:17.700 such a thing as keeping up and it's like

0:35:16.130,0:35:22.740 hmm

0:35:17.700,0:35:24.240 so like one thing that even Gwen talks

0:35:22.740,0:35:27.630 about this right what he talks about

0:35:24.240,0:35:31.400 kind of the mortgage markets has social

0:35:27.630,0:35:35.230 technology mentality versus the like

0:35:31.400,0:35:39.550 basically end of history mentality and I

0:35:35.230,0:35:42.730 like the way that I can and I definitely

0:35:39.550,0:35:44.680 saw this kind of zeitgeist 10 years ago

0:35:42.730,0:35:46.300 that said kind of even more broadly than

0:35:44.680,0:35:49.900 like markets versus other mechanisms

0:35:46.300,0:35:51.700 that's like things are 80% efficient and

0:35:49.900,0:35:52.240 lots of work to make them 95 percent

0:35:51.700,0:35:57.190 efficient

0:35:52.240,0:35:58.869 whereas the the thing that's really

0:35:57.190,0:35:59.980 going on is that things are 3 percent

0:35:58.869,0:36:02.080 efficient and we should work hard on

0:35:59.980,0:36:05.170 making them six percent efficient like

0:36:02.080,0:36:07.720 if you kind of move away from the narrow

0:36:05.170,0:36:08.859 context of like I'm I have something to

0:36:07.720,0:36:10.540 sell when you have something to buy

0:36:08.859,0:36:14.260 which is pretty well optimized already

0:36:10.540,0:36:15.820 then there's lots of these and very big

0:36:14.260,0:36:18.970 things that are happening that have just

0:36:15.820,0:36:23.320 completely been missed and in technology

0:36:18.970,0:36:25.180 and if Network effects and all and just

0:36:23.320,0:36:26.800 generally kind of migrating from atoms

0:36:25.180,0:36:31.180 to bits are definitely all a big part of

0:36:26.800,0:36:32.830 it so let's talk about something's a

0:36:31.180,0:36:35.800 little bit funny which is if you start

0:36:32.830,0:36:37.330 to replace government as we were talking

0:36:35.800,0:36:40.119 about it and you see it as a monopoly on

0:36:37.330,0:36:43.930 violence you notice that very often

0:36:40.119,0:36:46.480 there there's a very funny role played

0:36:43.930,0:36:48.340 by organized crime of course when we

0:36:46.480,0:36:50.770 think about organized crime we tend to

0:36:48.340,0:36:52.900 get emotionally excited by it for

0:36:50.770,0:36:56.080 whatever reason we make lots of movies

0:36:52.900,0:36:58.590 about it it occupies the mind is

0:36:56.080,0:37:01.480 something terrifying and alluring and

0:36:58.590,0:37:05.800 there's sort of two weird aspects to

0:37:01.480,0:37:09.550 organized crime one of which is violence

0:37:05.800,0:37:11.950 as a contract enforcement mechanism in

0:37:09.550,0:37:14.890 other words you're you're gambling so

0:37:11.950,0:37:16.420 you don't have access to the regular

0:37:14.890,0:37:20.290 court system now you have a gambling

0:37:16.420,0:37:26.320 debt and so just the way our government

0:37:20.290,0:37:28.330 would put you in jail if you you know

0:37:26.320,0:37:30.130 started doing things you couldn't

0:37:28.330,0:37:31.570 fulfill all of your obligations and you

0:37:30.130,0:37:34.990 were doing harm to lots of people and

0:37:31.570,0:37:37.540 you couldn't be stopped organized crime

0:37:34.990,0:37:40.270 has to do somebody can't maintain jails

0:37:37.540,0:37:42.700 you know so it can put the hurt on

0:37:40.270,0:37:45.220 somebody for means of contract

0:37:42.700,0:37:46.930 enforcement so it's it's not looking to

0:37:45.220,0:37:48.260 do violent things it's looking to run

0:37:46.930,0:37:49.910 illegal businesses

0:37:48.260,0:37:52.100 for which there's demand yeah and then

0:37:49.910,0:37:53.560 it has a problem of enforcement then

0:37:52.100,0:37:57.370 there's another part of it which is

0:37:53.560,0:37:59.930 violence as the product so for example

0:37:57.370,0:38:01.850 extortion be shame if anything were to

0:37:59.930,0:38:04.820 happen to this lovely business that

0:38:01.850,0:38:06.920 you're running is a veiled threat pay us

0:38:04.820,0:38:09.980 or we're gonna do harm to your business

0:38:06.920,0:38:12.340 or you know contract killings and the

0:38:09.980,0:38:15.110 like yeah are you worried that

0:38:12.340,0:38:18.140 effectively by introducing parallel

0:38:15.110,0:38:22.010 structures both in the form of currency

0:38:18.140,0:38:24.320 and in the form of contracts smart

0:38:22.010,0:38:27.590 contracts that are the cynic wanna and I

0:38:24.320,0:38:30.590 guess of the difference between Bitcoin

0:38:27.590,0:38:33.410 and aetherium right that the killer app

0:38:30.590,0:38:35.090 that is most likely to happen while the

0:38:33.410,0:38:37.880 technology is still clunky and

0:38:35.090,0:38:42.920 cumbersome and difficult is in the

0:38:37.880,0:38:46.340 parallel space that either you are going

0:38:42.920,0:38:49.430 to replace organized crime as a place to

0:38:46.340,0:38:52.130 do contractual business outside of the

0:38:49.430,0:38:54.890 normal scope which could be a benefit

0:38:52.130,0:38:56.870 because organized crime still exists and

0:38:54.890,0:38:58.880 is a bad thing because it uses violence

0:38:56.870,0:39:01.850 and you would use math and in place of

0:38:58.880,0:39:07.360 it or that it could actually be used to

0:39:01.850,0:39:09.530 facilitate violence by you know using

0:39:07.360,0:39:12.290 let's say prediction markets or

0:39:09.530,0:39:16.970 something else to induce people to

0:39:12.290,0:39:20.120 commit crimes where the committer the

0:39:16.970,0:39:21.800 committer of violence has unusual

0:39:20.120,0:39:23.120 information about where the violence

0:39:21.800,0:39:27.830 will be committed and therefore can

0:39:23.120,0:39:30.290 profit from it it's definitely a worry

0:39:27.830,0:39:31.670 that have I in make lots of people in

0:39:30.290,0:39:33.920 the crypt of space have had since the

0:39:31.670,0:39:36.530 beginning though I do feel like at least

0:39:33.920,0:39:38.090 so far I've been surprised like it feels

0:39:36.530,0:39:41.960 like a less avetis happens than we had

0:39:38.090,0:39:44.330 expected the thing now what do you what

0:39:41.960,0:39:47.750 accounts for the idea that something

0:39:44.330,0:39:51.250 that can be dreamt has mostly not

0:39:47.750,0:39:53.810 occurred yes I definitely have yeah

0:39:51.250,0:39:54.860 maybe it's a great thing about humans

0:39:53.810,0:39:56.330 that we didn't realize that we're not

0:39:54.860,0:39:57.800 nearly the horrible people we thought

0:39:56.330,0:39:59.750 and I definitely have a couple of

0:39:57.800,0:40:01.640 theories about this so one of those

0:39:59.750,0:40:07.519 theories is

0:40:01.640,0:40:10.849 like basically a lot of things that

0:40:07.519,0:40:12.769 people do and especially a lot of things

0:40:10.849,0:40:14.390 that people do in the InfoSphere because

0:40:12.769,0:40:15.710 like public goods are gonna have

0:40:14.390,0:40:18.730 chronically underfunded and all that

0:40:15.710,0:40:22.180 rely really heavily on goodwill and so

0:40:18.730,0:40:25.160 you know you have goodwill that if

0:40:22.180,0:40:27.289 someone if you pay someone to write some

0:40:25.160,0:40:29.809 piece piece of software for your website

0:40:27.289,0:40:31.880 it's not gonna include some bloggers go

0:40:29.809,0:40:33.829 yeah some bug that'll steal people's

0:40:31.880,0:40:37.730 money or tell the FBI where you are that

0:40:33.829,0:40:39.079 you if you create a system for the

0:40:37.730,0:40:42.470 enforcing agreements that they'll

0:40:39.079,0:40:45.710 actually get enforced then even like on

0:40:42.470,0:40:47.989 internet forums they depend on kind of a

0:40:45.710,0:40:51.259 lot of volunteer labor for just things

0:40:47.989,0:40:54.980 like moderation and if you create a

0:40:51.259,0:40:56.809 group that just goes like fundamentally

0:40:54.980,0:40:58.460 against like the vast majority of

0:40:56.809,0:41:00.440 people's values then it's just gonna be

0:40:58.460,0:41:06.680 hard to find volunteer effort for that

0:41:00.440,0:41:08.539 sort of thing and like this so that's

0:41:06.680,0:41:11.180 probably the big in the big reason I

0:41:08.539,0:41:13.700 think why ik so far we don't really see

0:41:11.180,0:41:16.309 a kind of you know complicated like

0:41:13.700,0:41:20.059 decentralized structure is being created

0:41:16.309,0:41:21.650 to facilitate like black black markets

0:41:20.059,0:41:22.819 for killing people and so forth because

0:41:21.650,0:41:26.029 let's start off with something more

0:41:22.819,0:41:28.130 mundane like a numbers racket right so a

0:41:26.029,0:41:31.099 numbers racket would probably be a much

0:41:28.130,0:41:32.960 simpler application so what do you mean

0:41:31.099,0:41:34.400 by numbers racket here well it's

0:41:32.960,0:41:36.650 something that takes the place of a

0:41:34.400,0:41:39.619 lottery where some let's say some

0:41:36.650,0:41:41.749 naturally occurring number that would be

0:41:39.619,0:41:44.329 printed in a newspaper and presumably

0:41:41.749,0:41:47.089 nobody has the influence over what

0:41:44.329,0:41:49.670 number gets printed right constitutes

0:41:47.089,0:41:51.920 the lotto draw lotteries have existed on

0:41:49.670,0:41:55.400 watching since the beginning yeah okay

0:41:51.920,0:41:57.319 even there's definitely been this kind

0:41:55.400,0:41:59.569 of sub community of people that created

0:41:57.319,0:42:01.099 these kind of provably faire Ponzi

0:41:59.569,0:42:03.019 contracts where and we have a smart

0:42:01.099,0:42:05.180 contracts and you can throw money in and

0:42:03.019,0:42:07.339 as soon as if you're the nth person to

0:42:05.180,0:42:10.069 throw money n su as soon as two n people

0:42:07.339,0:42:11.779 throw money and you get like 1.92 back

0:42:10.069,0:42:15.739 or something like that and like this was

0:42:11.779,0:42:18.200 just a fun game that people have made

0:42:15.739,0:42:19.910 and like participated in even fully

0:42:18.200,0:42:23.569 knowing what the economics of the thing

0:42:19.910,0:42:28.690 are so yeah in thing things like that

0:42:23.569,0:42:32.089 have definitely happened so I don't like

0:42:28.690,0:42:34.700 though in gambling is the sort of thing

0:42:32.089,0:42:36.739 that like there isn't like there isn't

0:42:34.700,0:42:38.539 this kind of nine ninety nine percent

0:42:36.739,0:42:41.150 plus consensus that it's really horrible

0:42:38.539,0:42:42.589 and evil right because like on the one

0:42:41.150,0:42:44.059 hand like lots of people want to be on

0:42:42.589,0:42:49.089 it but on the other hand people do it

0:42:44.059,0:42:51.829 and it's something that I think people

0:42:49.089,0:42:53.660 see negative consequences of but at the

0:42:51.829,0:42:55.249 same time it's something it is something

0:42:53.660,0:42:59.299 that people participate in and enjoy

0:42:55.249,0:43:01.549 whereas the I mean if extremely bad

0:42:59.299,0:43:04.160 stuff like that's there's definitely

0:43:01.549,0:43:06.559 this kind of this kind of barrier

0:43:04.160,0:43:08.239 between kind of things that are edgy

0:43:06.559,0:43:11.359 versus things that are just so far over

0:43:08.239,0:43:15.799 the edge and for things that are and if

0:43:11.359,0:43:17.869 so so far over the edge like it is yeah

0:43:15.799,0:43:19.220 even with smart contracts and even with

0:43:17.869,0:43:21.410 all of those things it's still hard to

0:43:19.220,0:43:25.160 coordinate those structures and I think

0:43:21.410,0:43:28.430 like the blockchain like the blockchains

0:43:25.160,0:43:30.109 inability to directly read facts about

0:43:28.430,0:43:33.710 the real world could even be a saving

0:43:30.109,0:43:36.410 grace here because like because a

0:43:33.710,0:43:38.029 blockchain can't directly read like

0:43:36.410,0:43:39.710 whether or not something in the real

0:43:38.029,0:43:41.239 world happens it basically me and said

0:43:39.710,0:43:42.739 if you want to have some application

0:43:41.239,0:43:45.140 whether a prediction market or something

0:43:42.739,0:43:46.489 else that does okay so can we say a

0:43:45.140,0:43:48.259 little bit more about the probably

0:43:46.489,0:43:48.799 intellectual problem that you're you're

0:43:48.259,0:43:50.690 in touching

0:43:48.799,0:43:52.999 so the idea is that there may be

0:43:50.690,0:43:58.130 something that's very perceptible to us

0:43:52.999,0:44:00.019 hmm about the real world but we might

0:43:58.130,0:44:01.869 naively think well the computer should

0:44:00.019,0:44:04.400 be able to tell whether that happened

0:44:01.869,0:44:07.460 right or it didn't happen and that

0:44:04.400,0:44:11.630 that's a surprisingly difficult thing to

0:44:07.460,0:44:15.230 code up reliably so that the interface

0:44:11.630,0:44:19.420 between the world of bits and bytes in

0:44:15.230,0:44:22.279 the world of otherwise physical reality

0:44:19.420,0:44:26.150 which often we don't realize we're

0:44:22.279,0:44:27.250 thinking about subjectively hmm that

0:44:26.150,0:44:30.430 it's hard to

0:44:27.250,0:44:32.530 maintain that interface so that the way

0:44:30.430,0:44:34.360 in which the things that have happened

0:44:32.530,0:44:36.550 in the real world can be definitely

0:44:34.360,0:44:38.830 agreed upon without us any kind of

0:44:36.550,0:44:40.930 adjudication inside of the digital right

0:44:38.830,0:44:43.270 yeah so I don't know how to say that

0:44:40.930,0:44:45.730 well block chains are an a fundamentally

0:44:43.270,0:44:47.890 programmatic medium all they see is data

0:44:45.730,0:44:50.650 that gets fed into them and what they

0:44:47.890,0:44:54.370 can compute as a result of that data and

0:44:50.650,0:44:56.920 so if you wants to create a smart

0:44:54.370,0:44:59.560 contract that says if someone figures

0:44:56.920,0:45:01.330 out how to what the prime factors have a

0:44:59.560,0:45:03.370 big number or pay them a reward you can

0:45:01.330,0:45:04.510 do that because prime prime factors are

0:45:03.370,0:45:07.150 something that you can multiply together

0:45:04.510,0:45:10.000 and verify but if he wants to have a

0:45:07.150,0:45:13.000 smart contract that says if there's a

0:45:10.000,0:45:14.980 hurricane and in Srilanka then pay five

0:45:13.000,0:45:17.080 hundred bucks then like you can't do

0:45:14.980,0:45:19.390 that on the watch in itself because like

0:45:17.080,0:45:20.830 computer code has no idea what

0:45:19.390,0:45:23.590 hurricanes are it has no idea what's

0:45:20.830,0:45:26.980 real like is nobody but in that case

0:45:23.590,0:45:29.710 could have a designation that you know

0:45:26.980,0:45:31.180 that the National correct you can you

0:45:29.710,0:45:32.830 can get data from third-party sources

0:45:31.180,0:45:35.410 and this is the thing that B else turns

0:45:32.830,0:45:36.910 it into data exactly this is the the

0:45:35.410,0:45:38.560 thing that a lot of applications are

0:45:36.910,0:45:41.080 doing but the thing that's important to

0:45:38.560,0:45:43.360 keep in mind is that as soon as you do

0:45:41.080,0:45:46.210 that a guru or smart contractor has no

0:45:43.360,0:45:48.070 longer fully trust us right right so

0:45:46.210,0:45:52.900 there's this concept which is like a

0:45:48.070,0:45:54.730 utopian concept of a trustless legal

0:45:52.900,0:45:57.190 system so that you don't have the

0:45:54.730,0:45:59.320 messiness of humans anywhere in the

0:45:57.190,0:46:01.810 system and you can have complete faith

0:45:59.320,0:46:03.430 and confidence in the contract that

0:46:01.810,0:46:07.060 you've struck yeah right and like

0:46:03.430,0:46:08.770 outside of prude like basically giving

0:46:07.060,0:46:10.870 bounties for solving math problems so

0:46:08.770,0:46:12.840 like it's not something that you can

0:46:10.870,0:46:17.470 100% achieve so I can't necessarily

0:46:12.840,0:46:21.190 ensure my vacation that if if I go all

0:46:17.470,0:46:24.790 the way to Argentina and the weather is

0:46:21.190,0:46:26.860 terrible it pays out because we can't

0:46:24.790,0:46:30.040 agree what terrible weather is right

0:46:26.860,0:46:32.230 like you can create structures bit made

0:46:30.040,0:46:35.890 out of individual participants they can

0:46:32.230,0:46:38.410 try to and if align incentives to get

0:46:35.890,0:46:40.690 people to kind of give to give correct

0:46:38.410,0:46:41.150 results so and you can have complicated

0:46:40.690,0:46:42.619 and if

0:46:41.150,0:46:43.970 interruptions involving people giving

0:46:42.619,0:46:46.549 different answers and policing each

0:46:43.970,0:46:47.960 other and rewarding people who give the

0:46:46.549,0:46:49.750 same answer that other people have

0:46:47.960,0:46:53.329 committed to and things like this but

0:46:49.750,0:46:56.660 like you can only try to approach the

0:46:53.329,0:46:58.670 had like the idea love kind of correct

0:46:56.660,0:47:02.960 truth like you can never 100% reach it

0:46:58.670,0:47:06.799 now you started aetherium in 2014-2015

0:47:02.960,0:47:10.039 um started started end of 2013 I mean it

0:47:06.799,0:47:12.079 watched in 2015 okay would you say let's

0:47:10.039,0:47:15.760 use launch data as an artificial sure

0:47:12.079,0:47:21.079 date would you say you are more or less

0:47:15.760,0:47:23.240 excited emotionally hmm then you were

0:47:21.079,0:47:27.579 when it started you've now been through

0:47:23.240,0:47:27.579 so you've logged some miles here hmm I

0:47:30.069,0:47:37.640 definitely definitely stay excited I

0:47:34.150,0:47:40.880 worked I think the main difference is

0:47:37.640,0:47:43.700 kind of more like definitely a kinda

0:47:40.880,0:47:46.099 excited in the sense of like four years

0:47:43.700,0:47:48.680 well definite and like I kind of as

0:47:46.099,0:47:51.349 opposed to indefinite like four years

0:47:48.680,0:47:54.140 yeah four years ago was about like hey

0:47:51.349,0:47:56.210 let's make this platform to kind of try

0:47:54.140,0:47:57.589 really a bunch of really cool things we

0:47:56.210,0:48:00.020 have no idea what's gonna happen and

0:47:57.589,0:48:02.630 let's just stick it out there and now

0:48:00.020,0:48:04.609 like we know things about things and

0:48:02.630,0:48:07.910 people are already doing we know things

0:48:04.609,0:48:09.740 about things that people wants to do on

0:48:07.910,0:48:12.890 wait hands we'll also know more about

0:48:09.740,0:48:15.140 Nick what the limitations are and so

0:48:12.890,0:48:17.390 instead of just being this kind of

0:48:15.140,0:48:19.849 extremely fuzzy dream of like let's

0:48:17.390,0:48:22.099 stick smart contracts and algorithms and

0:48:19.849,0:48:27.609 kind of trust us if I everything right

0:48:22.099,0:48:31.400 it's something that's kind of both more

0:48:27.609,0:48:34.160 moderate but also kind of more like

0:48:31.400,0:48:36.140 seeming much more like it I like it

0:48:34.160,0:48:37.819 actually has a big chance of kind of

0:48:36.140,0:48:41.029 transforming the world and of precisely

0:48:37.819,0:48:44.180 because that's when moderated to some

0:48:41.029,0:48:46.069 extent so you more if I gave you false

0:48:44.180,0:48:47.990 three choices and by the way smart

0:48:46.069,0:48:50.029 people always hate these things so feel

0:48:47.990,0:48:51.589 free to break the model mmm if I gave

0:48:50.029,0:48:53.710 you a choice between saying are you

0:48:51.589,0:48:55.180 mostly excited about

0:48:53.710,0:48:57.730 the technology and the amount of

0:48:55.180,0:48:59.410 innovation are you mostly excited about

0:48:57.730,0:49:02.830 the business opportunities for yourself

0:48:59.410,0:49:06.119 or are you mostly excited about the way

0:49:02.830,0:49:08.740 in which this could transform human life

0:49:06.119,0:49:11.560 would you be that would that be an easy

0:49:08.740,0:49:14.140 call or would you say I reject that

0:49:11.560,0:49:19.839 decision tree some mix over the first

0:49:14.140,0:49:21.550 and the third mm no I just like the

0:49:19.839,0:49:23.619 framing of business opportunities is

0:49:21.550,0:49:26.800 definitely kind of never ik like this is

0:49:23.619,0:49:28.510 weird I mean the despite and I've even I

0:49:26.800,0:49:30.880 get the sense that you don't love money

0:49:28.510,0:49:34.869 enough yeah this is true

0:49:30.880,0:49:36.910 okay hmm I mean it's weird because I for

0:49:34.869,0:49:38.320 a long time you have a lot of it yeah

0:49:36.910,0:49:40.540 well I have a lot of it and it's also

0:49:38.320,0:49:43.630 even weirder because I like for a long

0:49:40.540,0:49:45.700 time I subscribed so this kind of branch

0:49:43.630,0:49:47.530 of economics that basically says that

0:49:45.700,0:49:49.750 like love of money is like the best

0:49:47.530,0:49:55.839 motivation for B vote for people to have

0:49:49.750,0:49:58.660 an Randian um well in I'd say make in

0:49:55.839,0:50:00.760 that area but it's but I don't get that

0:49:58.660,0:50:03.849 I'll be honest I just don't get that

0:50:00.760,0:50:05.740 vibe right I mean there's I've

0:50:03.849,0:50:08.800 definitely kind of shifted a lot over

0:50:05.740,0:50:10.869 the years I think my experience even

0:50:08.800,0:50:13.300 within the crypto space itself has kind

0:50:10.869,0:50:17.560 of trend and given me a lot of new

0:50:13.300,0:50:21.339 information to work with more like the

0:50:17.560,0:50:24.000 this basically and then this goes back

0:50:21.339,0:50:26.680 to this kind of cryptocurrencies as a

0:50:24.000,0:50:33.940 microcosm of wider society thing right

0:50:26.680,0:50:37.030 like if you're like basically any like

0:50:33.940,0:50:38.859 any movements regardless of like what it

0:50:37.030,0:50:40.330 what the movement is for what its goals

0:50:38.859,0:50:42.339 are to be succeeded needs to be

0:50:40.330,0:50:43.900 sufficiently big and once something is

0:50:42.339,0:50:45.880 sufficiently big it needs to have

0:50:43.900,0:50:47.410 internal structure to a coordinated

0:50:45.880,0:50:49.960 initially of its objectives which means

0:50:47.410,0:50:52.270 that it suffers from governance issues

0:50:49.960,0:50:55.869 it suffers from public goods the issue

0:50:52.270,0:50:58.750 is it suffers from conflicts with

0:50:55.869,0:51:01.780 adjacent movements and suffers from

0:50:58.750,0:51:04.720 conflicts between its own values and its

0:51:01.780,0:51:06.940 and its own desire to succeed and so on

0:51:04.720,0:51:10.270 and so forth and like it needs to

0:51:06.940,0:51:12.849 come up with ways to answer like

0:51:10.270,0:51:14.109 basically almost the same kinds of hard

0:51:12.849,0:51:16.960 problems at the world as a whole is

0:51:14.109,0:51:19.119 working on well you know it's

0:51:16.960,0:51:22.839 interesting when I look at this sort of

0:51:19.119,0:51:24.700 world of people maybe had an epicenter

0:51:22.839,0:51:27.849 in the Bay Area though I think it's less

0:51:24.700,0:51:29.440 true now we're trying to figure out what

0:51:27.849,0:51:34.650 is the future and how do we get there

0:51:29.440,0:51:37.380 there's a very clear sense that people's

0:51:34.650,0:51:40.920 creativity and their intelligence is

0:51:37.380,0:51:44.170 correlated with their financial success

0:51:40.920,0:51:46.240 but it's not very tight and so there's

0:51:44.170,0:51:48.970 like an embarrassment that well that

0:51:46.240,0:51:50.920 person is super amazing and then mm-hmm

0:51:48.970,0:51:53.770 not doing all that well this person

0:51:50.920,0:51:56.410 somehow metabolizing amend this amount

0:51:53.770,0:51:58.359 this is something that I've definitely

0:51:56.410,0:52:01.150 have realized just from one of my

0:51:58.359,0:52:03.250 travels like I've interacted with a lot

0:52:01.150,0:52:04.750 of kind of super famous people in

0:52:03.250,0:52:07.059 different kinds of positions which

0:52:04.750,0:52:08.920 includes like some world leaders and

0:52:07.059,0:52:13.240 includes some kind of leaders of like

0:52:08.920,0:52:16.390 fields in cryptography and it in you

0:52:13.240,0:52:19.690 realize that like people in these

0:52:16.390,0:52:22.210 positions they are impressive but

0:52:19.690,0:52:24.700 they're not like super amazing godlike

0:52:22.210,0:52:26.109 impressive right something tomorrow some

0:52:24.700,0:52:27.849 of them are but then there's also super

0:52:26.109,0:52:29.559 amazing godlike impressive people that

0:52:27.849,0:52:31.210 just like don't get her to get that much

0:52:29.559,0:52:34.210 shit I don't know what I'm trying to get

0:52:31.210,0:52:37.630 at I think about like if you hang around

0:52:34.210,0:52:39.279 with musicians very often you'll have

0:52:37.630,0:52:41.170 some buddies a super famous musicians

0:52:39.279,0:52:42.069 and you want to who's really good and

0:52:41.170,0:52:45.730 they'll tell you some of you've never

0:52:42.069,0:52:50.470 heard of and musician's musician exactly

0:52:45.730,0:52:53.589 this yes right and so you know if I if I

0:52:50.470,0:52:56.109 gave the name of people who are famous

0:52:53.589,0:52:57.970 for being let's say physicists they're

0:52:56.109,0:52:59.890 very often the people on television as

0:52:57.970,0:53:02.260 physicists mm-hmm but they would all

0:52:59.890,0:53:03.460 point to some guy who doesn't give a lot

0:53:02.260,0:53:05.950 of interviews and say well that's the

0:53:03.460,0:53:10.890 top guy exactly like basically the

0:53:05.950,0:53:14.440 social status like is predicted by

0:53:10.890,0:53:17.529 confidence multiplied by like basically

0:53:14.440,0:53:19.299 publicity skill and that's half

0:53:17.529,0:53:20.590 correlated with competence for obvious

0:53:19.299,0:53:21.730 reasons right like those

0:53:20.590,0:53:22.930 people also know the people that have

0:53:21.730,0:53:23.920 the real confidence and that's one of

0:53:22.930,0:53:25.990 the things that I've always found really

0:53:23.920,0:53:28.900 interesting about people who have this

0:53:25.990,0:53:32.860 diehard belief that markets produce

0:53:28.900,0:53:36.250 justice which is I do think that success

0:53:32.860,0:53:41.950 in markets is somewhat correlated or has

0:53:36.250,0:53:44.050 been with things like productivity but

0:53:41.950,0:53:46.270 it's also correlated sometimes with how

0:53:44.050,0:53:48.340 predatory somebody can be or you know

0:53:46.270,0:53:51.460 how lucky they happen to be at a

0:53:48.340,0:53:55.600 particular moment and one of the

0:53:51.460,0:53:57.130 questions that I have is if you're

0:53:55.600,0:53:59.170 really interested in innovation which is

0:53:57.130,0:54:03.250 what I sort of pick up is you know the

0:53:59.170,0:54:06.910 main things how does something like

0:54:03.250,0:54:10.660 aetherium give us a possibility to

0:54:06.910,0:54:12.760 revitalize innovation after what many of

0:54:10.660,0:54:15.900 us consider a period of relative

0:54:12.760,0:54:17.740 stagnancy outside of the areas of

0:54:15.900,0:54:21.310 computation communication which

0:54:17.740,0:54:24.820 everybody knows have exploded hmm do you

0:54:21.310,0:54:30.660 think about how if cerium can mediate a

0:54:24.820,0:54:30.660 new Renaissance a new generative age

0:54:31.260,0:54:37.990 about it a little bit definitely and I

0:54:34.060,0:54:42.970 think I mean there's ten of etherium as

0:54:37.990,0:54:44.650 a platform for experiments in governance

0:54:42.970,0:54:47.740 and public goods funding is one thing I

0:54:44.650,0:54:50.350 mentioned and education is another thing

0:54:47.740,0:54:52.360 that I end of talk about in the end

0:54:50.350,0:54:54.400 obviously we do I mean I have a lot of

0:54:52.360,0:54:58.960 these blog posts on Vitalik dossier in

0:54:54.400,0:55:00.970 other forums and like they're one of the

0:54:58.960,0:55:04.510 big challenges that a for example is

0:55:00.970,0:55:06.430 that like for in and of Internet

0:55:04.510,0:55:08.170 educational resources in general there's

0:55:06.430,0:55:10.900 basically two kinds right there's like

0:55:08.170,0:55:13.270 papers and I Wikipedia and like

0:55:10.900,0:55:14.950 basically things that are technically

0:55:13.270,0:55:17.590 accurate but they're just not core ibly

0:55:14.950,0:55:19.510 not understand understandable at all and

0:55:17.590,0:55:21.490 we should not be forcing people to even

0:55:19.510,0:55:23.650 try reading them and then there's pops a

0:55:21.490,0:55:26.080 literature which is very accessible but

0:55:23.650,0:55:30.280 it's often just actively wrong in really

0:55:26.080,0:55:31.720 horrible ways and okay I personally even

0:55:30.280,0:55:33.370 before a theorem like I did Bitcoin

0:55:31.720,0:55:34.420 magazine for example like I've always

0:55:33.370,0:55:37.779 tried

0:55:34.420,0:55:41.410 to find this kind of middle gap this way

0:55:37.779,0:55:43.839 to explain can take concepts that are

0:55:41.410,0:55:45.700 technical and if expand them to a bride

0:55:43.839,0:55:48.519 a broader audience so they are more

0:55:45.700,0:55:51.569 accessible and like this to me has been

0:55:48.519,0:55:53.589 important in part because like I view

0:55:51.569,0:55:55.990 accessibility of information about the

0:55:53.589,0:55:58.210 technology as a precondition for even

0:55:55.990,0:55:59.950 the decentralization of the space like

0:55:58.210,0:56:01.720 if the thing technically runs on fifty

0:55:59.950,0:56:03.039 thousand computers but only forty two

0:56:01.720,0:56:04.660 people know how it works and your

0:56:03.039,0:56:07.960 decentralization indexes and fifty

0:56:04.660,0:56:10.450 thousand it's 42 you know and so there's

0:56:07.960,0:56:15.549 a very nice point yeah and so trying to

0:56:10.450,0:56:17.140 kind of improve like even how we in the

0:56:15.549,0:56:20.019 etherium community and if work on

0:56:17.140,0:56:23.470 innovation internally but so those are

0:56:20.019,0:56:27.700 kind of things that and if that happened

0:56:23.470,0:56:29.529 in blockchains as a novella as a lab for

0:56:27.700,0:56:31.680 trying out new things kind of first for

0:56:29.529,0:56:33.549 the blockchain space and then

0:56:31.680,0:56:35.890 potentially export it to other things

0:56:33.549,0:56:38.559 and then we can also look at head of

0:56:35.890,0:56:41.799 wall chains as something that can be

0:56:38.559,0:56:45.490 used to improve and create better

0:56:41.799,0:56:48.069 institutions so like one of the etherium

0:56:45.490,0:56:50.589 foundations researchers vlad sam fear he

0:56:48.069,0:56:51.940 actually got into aetherium because he

0:56:50.589,0:56:55.720 was working at how to improve academic

0:56:51.940,0:56:57.130 publishing and like he saw things like

0:56:55.720,0:56:59.890 you know the existing peer review

0:56:57.130,0:57:01.839 mechanisms and how they were just a very

0:56:59.890,0:57:05.259 flawed in a bunch of ways and he thought

0:57:01.839,0:57:07.450 that like hey here's potentially apply

0:57:05.259,0:57:09.309 form that we could use to build

0:57:07.450,0:57:12.369 something that does better and like

0:57:09.309,0:57:15.039 that's one of his core interests and why

0:57:12.369,0:57:17.410 he is even continuing to work on the

0:57:15.039,0:57:20.170 technology you know i hadn't understood

0:57:17.410,0:57:22.750 how insiders viewed peer review in an

0:57:20.170,0:57:25.569 academic context until he finance

0:57:22.750,0:57:28.329 professor got drunk at a party and said

0:57:25.569,0:57:31.029 you know that guy who's harassing you

0:57:28.329,0:57:32.710 and your research in finance you don't

0:57:31.029,0:57:34.660 know why he's doing i said well why do

0:57:32.710,0:57:37.119 you think he's doing so i know he says

0:57:34.660,0:57:40.210 we've created a system where our fees

0:57:37.119,0:57:44.380 are sky-high to consult and we do this

0:57:40.210,0:57:46.539 by making the number of professors in

0:57:44.380,0:57:47.400 our field small by controlling peer

0:57:46.539,0:57:49.079 review

0:57:47.400,0:57:50.670 and so that effectively we are at

0:57:49.079,0:57:54.359 conspiracy in restraint like this guy's

0:57:50.670,0:57:56.130 just telling me straight out that this

0:57:54.359,0:57:58.500 is a gating function to keep their

0:57:56.130,0:58:00.569 consulting fees high and that this guy

0:57:58.500,0:58:02.609 is gonna do everything that they tell

0:58:00.569,0:58:04.109 him to do because otherwise he can't

0:58:02.609,0:58:07.200 come into the club and charge these

0:58:04.109,0:58:09.869 rates that sounds about right

0:58:07.200,0:58:11.339 right so him that one of the app another

0:58:09.869,0:58:13.559 killer application so you have one

0:58:11.339,0:58:15.569 potential suite of applications which

0:58:13.559,0:58:18.359 have to do with facilitating illegality

0:58:15.569,0:58:20.910 some of that might regard will result in

0:58:18.359,0:58:24.180 net reduction of harm because you could

0:58:20.910,0:58:27.900 replace violence with math yes on the

0:58:24.180,0:58:31.410 other hand a place where you could have

0:58:27.900,0:58:36.779 a really positive effect is political

0:58:31.410,0:58:40.980 economy where by removing the human

0:58:36.779,0:58:43.289 ability to act badly you effectively

0:58:40.980,0:58:47.880 create a much fairer more representative

0:58:43.289,0:58:50.520 world exactly you know what do we do so

0:58:47.880,0:58:52.260 you have an interest in in the two

0:58:50.520,0:58:55.440 fields that I find Wikipedia can't

0:58:52.260,0:58:58.470 explain to any normal human being our

0:58:55.440,0:59:00.359 theoretical math and physics even

0:58:58.470,0:59:01.829 biology you can sort of guess what's

0:59:00.359,0:59:04.950 going on because you have something

0:59:01.829,0:59:07.260 concrete to the area but even biology

0:59:04.950,0:59:08.609 like you got a learn math the deeply

0:59:07.260,0:59:11.010 grok it because otherwise you're just

0:59:08.609,0:59:14.910 memorizing like names of chemicals well

0:59:11.010,0:59:19.260 but you could my here I have a PhD in

0:59:14.910,0:59:22.349 math if I try to read a math paper one

0:59:19.260,0:59:25.319 or two fields over from my own field

0:59:22.349,0:59:27.420 right I will do less well with it than

0:59:25.319,0:59:29.119 if I read a biology paper and even

0:59:27.420,0:59:32.220 though I've taken no class in biology

0:59:29.119,0:59:35.880 that sounds right yeah yeah like there's

0:59:32.220,0:59:38.299 a difference between the level of math

0:59:35.880,0:59:41.010 that you have to know it's you just

0:59:38.299,0:59:44.039 because it's important for you as a

0:59:41.010,0:59:45.720 philosopher and then and like that's

0:59:44.039,0:59:47.760 about the level of math that I think you

0:59:45.720,0:59:49.319 need even to be good at biology to be

0:59:47.760,0:59:52.410 good at economics to be good at a lot of

0:59:49.319,0:59:54.420 things right it's understanding like

0:59:52.410,0:59:57.119 principles even things like for example

0:59:54.420,0:59:59.460 if you have a trade-off between x and y

0:59:57.119,1:00:01.240 and right now you're optimizing entirely

0:59:59.460,1:00:03.490 for x and it's a smooth curve

1:00:01.240,1:00:04.900 then if he wants a little bit of Y then

1:00:03.490,1:00:06.940 you can get your first bit of Y at

1:00:04.900,1:00:10.030 almost like zero cost of X right and

1:00:06.940,1:00:12.460 that's just a prop like it's a property

1:00:10.030,1:00:13.960 of continuous functions that look from

1:00:12.460,1:00:16.960 the maximum of the derivative starts at

1:00:13.960,1:00:19.960 zero you know like if you kind of just

1:00:16.960,1:00:22.180 deeply kind of mentally grok about like

1:00:19.960,1:00:23.560 a couple hundred of these facts the way

1:00:22.180,1:00:25.810 you're deeply kind of mentally grow out

1:00:23.560,1:00:28.210 like how to walk then like you get a lot

1:00:25.810,1:00:30.130 but then from there there's also like

1:00:28.210,1:00:32.860 the frontiers and often I mean the

1:00:30.130,1:00:34.210 frontiers were most important well so

1:00:32.860,1:00:36.850 here's a weird thing I don't know how to

1:00:34.210,1:00:37.750 bring up when I try to understand crypto

1:00:36.850,1:00:40.680 as a space

1:00:37.750,1:00:43.600 I'm always confronted by how incredibly

1:00:40.680,1:00:46.390 Byzantine and impossible it is to

1:00:43.600,1:00:48.369 understand all of the acronyms all of

1:00:46.390,1:00:53.440 the sub pieces of history I mean it's an

1:00:48.369,1:00:56.650 incredibly fragmented experience in

1:00:53.440,1:01:02.280 which I spend a long period of time just

1:00:56.650,1:01:05.290 feeling moronic isn't it odd that like

1:01:02.280,1:01:07.240 etherium itself suffers from this this

1:01:05.290,1:01:09.420 problem it's hard to know what's going

1:01:07.240,1:01:12.580 on yeah it's definitely something that

1:01:09.420,1:01:15.220 we wants to fix so if I mean if you ever

1:01:12.580,1:01:16.540 have suggestions on like what

1:01:15.220,1:01:18.010 specifically we could make more

1:01:16.540,1:01:21.520 understandable I'm always happy to hear

1:01:18.010,1:01:23.700 those fantastic now one thing that I

1:01:21.520,1:01:27.190 think is really interesting is this

1:01:23.700,1:01:30.790 episode that occurred in the etherium

1:01:27.190,1:01:35.440 space in which you are faced with a very

1:01:30.790,1:01:40.000 serious question of leadership having to

1:01:35.440,1:01:42.910 do with an emergency that you could have

1:01:40.000,1:01:45.100 either allowed to follow the rules that

1:01:42.910,1:01:48.850 had been previously specified in some

1:01:45.100,1:01:50.650 sense or could where you could interject

1:01:48.850,1:01:53.140 a certain amount of human intervention

1:01:50.650,1:01:57.130 but thereby letting people know that

1:01:53.140,1:01:59.830 this was to some extent not mediated

1:01:57.130,1:02:01.270 only by rules and computers can you can

1:01:59.830,1:02:05.380 you say a little bit about this famous

1:02:01.270,1:02:07.660 incident and sure so in 2016 there was

1:02:05.380,1:02:11.050 this smart contract that a group called

1:02:07.660,1:02:13.050 salokya launched called the dao and do

1:02:11.050,1:02:15.040 stands for a decentralized autonomous

1:02:13.050,1:02:17.110 organization and such our my team

1:02:15.040,1:02:19.840 with about three years before and it

1:02:17.110,1:02:21.580 basically means that maybe you can have

1:02:19.840,1:02:24.850 a smart contract to this computer

1:02:21.580,1:02:27.130 program that controls digital assets and

1:02:24.850,1:02:30.280 if encode a set of rules for an

1:02:27.130,1:02:31.930 organization and like you can use this

1:02:30.280,1:02:33.580 kind of smart contract basically as a

1:02:31.930,1:02:36.430 replacement for things like companies

1:02:33.580,1:02:39.970 and so some I could decide to launch a

1:02:36.430,1:02:42.610 Dao and their Dao was intended to be

1:02:39.970,1:02:47.080 basically a decentralized VC fund so

1:02:42.610,1:02:48.910 people could apply the Dao would vote on

1:02:47.080,1:02:51.610 which projects were worth investing in

1:02:48.910,1:02:57.130 so leaderless rule-based yeah and

1:02:51.610,1:02:59.740 virtual exactly know is they hit hit all

1:02:57.130,1:03:02.320 the cypherpunk nodes that they're in the

1:02:59.740,1:03:05.710 right place okay and the thing launched

1:03:02.320,1:03:08.200 and we were all expecting it during its

1:03:05.710,1:03:10.600 kind of initial fundraising phase which

1:03:08.200,1:03:12.730 was also like an open public blockchain

1:03:10.600,1:03:15.430 process and to maybe get five million

1:03:12.730,1:03:18.130 dollars but then it got five and it got

1:03:15.430,1:03:19.900 ten and I got twenty I got fifty and a

1:03:18.130,1:03:23.950 hundred and then the price of youth went

1:03:19.900,1:03:26.710 up and I got two hundred and then when I

1:03:23.950,1:03:29.130 was sitting at AF friends was it all

1:03:26.710,1:03:31.990 alarming that it was so successful

1:03:29.130,1:03:33.970 after the 50 mark I definitely have

1:03:31.990,1:03:35.920 switched from excitement's to deep

1:03:33.970,1:03:38.050 apprehension but you know it's a

1:03:35.920,1:03:41.530 contract did you let on that that you

1:03:38.050,1:03:45.490 were feeling that way a bit okay yeah so

1:03:41.530,1:03:47.650 on a June 17th 2016 and when I was in

1:03:45.490,1:03:52.930 Shanghai at a a friend's apartment and

1:03:47.650,1:03:57.670 it was about fifteen thirty something in

1:03:52.930,1:04:00.160 the afternoon I saw a message in one of

1:03:57.670,1:04:02.350 the Skype chats that it was that I was

1:04:00.160,1:04:03.970 in and someone basically was saying hey

1:04:02.350,1:04:05.350 guys look at the Dow it seems like

1:04:03.970,1:04:08.770 there's some money coming out of it and

1:04:05.350,1:04:12.070 so I checked on the public black

1:04:08.770,1:04:14.350 Explorer on the blockchain and I saw oh

1:04:12.070,1:04:16.570 look that it seems like about two

1:04:14.350,1:04:19.420 million dollar has actually already been

1:04:16.570,1:04:21.670 removed from the Dow and more ethos and

1:04:19.420,1:04:24.370 of slowly being drained over time and so

1:04:21.670,1:04:26.880 I pinged the core developers and I asked

1:04:24.370,1:04:30.060 hey is this normal and

1:04:26.880,1:04:31.710 at first I was thinking okay the

1:04:30.060,1:04:33.510 alternative is unthinkable there has to

1:04:31.710,1:04:36.660 be a reasonable explanation for this

1:04:33.510,1:04:41.400 and so you were locked into some sort of

1:04:36.660,1:04:44.400 denial for at the beginning yes and the

1:04:41.400,1:04:46.710 developers looked at it and over the

1:04:44.400,1:04:48.540 next half-hour as more and more people

1:04:46.710,1:04:50.580 came online and started chattering with

1:04:48.540,1:04:54.350 each other it became clear that the

1:04:50.580,1:04:57.330 unthinkable has actually happened and I

1:04:54.350,1:05:01.470 actually burned about 20 of my own if

1:04:57.330,1:05:03.480 like basically just tossing the ethereum

1:05:01.470,1:05:05.670 blockchain in itself and just spamming

1:05:03.480,1:05:07.680 it with transactions to try to and if so

1:05:05.670,1:05:09.090 low the attacker I've seen is denial of

1:05:07.680,1:05:10.620 service yeah yeah just spam the

1:05:09.090,1:05:13.020 blockchain with dren that got all of my

1:05:10.620,1:05:14.970 listeners will know the terms okay so

1:05:13.020,1:05:16.260 that the attackers transactions could

1:05:14.970,1:05:17.850 not get in as quickly because the

1:05:16.260,1:05:20.100 attackers transact the attacker could

1:05:17.850,1:05:21.720 only withdraw something like a couple

1:05:20.100,1:05:24.210 hundred East with every transaction so

1:05:21.720,1:05:26.970 it was a slow process like in the hopes

1:05:24.210,1:05:29.130 that the developers would find some way

1:05:26.970,1:05:30.990 to ply was an intentional inefficiency

1:05:29.130,1:05:32.820 or was just that it was it was not

1:05:30.990,1:05:34.500 intentional so in some weird way the

1:05:32.820,1:05:35.940 inefficiency was a good thing yes it

1:05:34.500,1:05:37.620 gets even weirder there was an even

1:05:35.940,1:05:39.560 bigger and efficiency that would that

1:05:37.620,1:05:43.890 would prove to be an even better thing

1:05:39.560,1:05:46.290 so but then the developers however did

1:05:43.890,1:05:48.360 not find a way to plug the hole but the

1:05:46.290,1:05:50.730 attacker voluntarily stopped after

1:05:48.360,1:05:53.550 stealing about 4 million eath from the

1:05:50.730,1:05:55.740 dough but in any case the this is a

1:05:53.550,1:05:58.680 second in efficiency it voluntarily

1:05:55.740,1:06:01.200 stopped yeah there was a request made no

1:05:58.680,1:06:06.900 no as in the attacker just stopped ok

1:06:01.200,1:06:07.680 and and so here's the second and bigger

1:06:06.900,1:06:10.710 in efficiency

1:06:07.680,1:06:13.170 the money that was the attacker took out

1:06:10.710,1:06:14.600 the four million eighth it did not go

1:06:13.170,1:06:17.130 into the attacker swallow it immediately

1:06:14.600,1:06:20.550 instead it went into a child smart

1:06:17.130,1:06:22.050 contract and only after 35 days could

1:06:20.550,1:06:24.450 the attacker action we take that money

1:06:22.050,1:06:27.030 out and this was child smart contract

1:06:24.450,1:06:30.120 you mean a separate smart contract that

1:06:27.030,1:06:33.750 was created through a function call of

1:06:30.120,1:06:36.420 the main Dao smart contract ok so this

1:06:33.750,1:06:39.470 was also not intended right it was just

1:06:36.420,1:06:40.890 like a random quirk of this of fate that

1:06:39.470,1:06:43.080 there was this

1:06:40.890,1:06:44.940 big bug that was the biggest smart

1:06:43.080,1:06:47.910 contract theft in history up until that

1:06:44.940,1:06:50.280 point and it put the money into this

1:06:47.910,1:06:52.410 convenient box were just a conveniently

1:06:50.280,1:06:57.180 locked for 35 days where everyone could

1:06:52.410,1:07:00.540 stare and look at it oh yeah and the

1:06:57.180,1:07:02.580 soon after this there were calls

1:07:00.540,1:07:04.560 happening between core developers and

1:07:02.580,1:07:07.950 the proposal to remedy the situation

1:07:04.560,1:07:10.320 with a blockchain fork I came into play

1:07:07.950,1:07:12.840 right so basically what happened here is

1:07:10.320,1:07:15.120 the it was a blockchain fork an

1:07:12.840,1:07:19.230 emotional issue for this community yeah

1:07:15.120,1:07:20.850 so why is it so what I guess first of

1:07:19.230,1:07:24.150 all what is it exactly so explain what

1:07:20.850,1:07:25.830 what would happen so in general a

1:07:24.150,1:07:29.040 blockchain forcus on normal process

1:07:25.830,1:07:30.930 right you have an upgrade and the

1:07:29.040,1:07:33.720 developers of the etherium clients

1:07:30.930,1:07:36.390 implement code that basically says after

1:07:33.720,1:07:38.790 block number four three seven zero zero

1:07:36.390,1:07:40.170 zero zero stop processing blocks

1:07:38.790,1:07:41.640 according to the old rules start

1:07:40.170,1:07:43.260 processing blocks according to the new

1:07:41.640,1:07:47.250 rules which have extra features attached

1:07:43.260,1:07:53.000 and where blocks are just said packages

1:07:47.250,1:07:56.940 of transactions okay and B's and so ever

1:07:53.000,1:07:59.100 before this sub I know these code

1:07:56.940,1:08:01.110 patches are formally proposed there is

1:07:59.100,1:08:02.730 this month-long period of mini month

1:08:01.110,1:08:05.070 long period of deliberation we are

1:08:02.730,1:08:08.130 changes or proposed people discuss them

1:08:05.070,1:08:09.960 people talk about them and generally

1:08:08.130,1:08:12.450 it's agreed that these changes are good

1:08:09.960,1:08:14.160 and so people just go and download the

1:08:12.450,1:08:16.470 code and because everyone's downloaded

1:08:14.160,1:08:18.150 the code the blockchain after block four

1:08:16.470,1:08:19.320 three seven zero zero zero zero follows

1:08:18.150,1:08:22.290 these difference in better it's a very

1:08:19.320,1:08:24.300 warm and very human process yeah called

1:08:22.290,1:08:29.130 logic of a machine exactly

1:08:24.300,1:08:31.920 and so the dal Fork

1:08:29.130,1:08:34.350 it was also a fork it was also a code

1:08:31.920,1:08:38.550 change implemented by the developers of

1:08:34.350,1:08:41.610 the clients that is it was pushed out

1:08:38.550,1:08:43.530 through a new version of the different

1:08:41.610,1:08:45.900 clients that people could download and

1:08:43.530,1:08:49.320 users went ahead and voluntarily

1:08:45.900,1:08:51.000 downloaded it and it would basically

1:08:49.320,1:08:52.680 change the rules of the blockchain

1:08:51.000,1:08:53.849 except instead of changing them

1:08:52.680,1:08:55.859 permanently

1:08:53.849,1:08:58.079 it would only do what a single one time

1:08:55.859,1:09:01.529 change and the single one time change

1:08:58.079,1:09:03.509 basically said during block one one nine

1:09:01.529,1:09:06.599 two zero zero zero zero before

1:09:03.509,1:09:09.989 processing any transactions take the

1:09:06.599,1:09:11.790 ether that stuck in the this child

1:09:09.989,1:09:13.739 contract and move it into another

1:09:11.790,1:09:17.819 contract that could then basically

1:09:13.739,1:09:20.339 refund it all to the victims and so this

1:09:17.819,1:09:22.859 is a very kind of manual intervention

1:09:20.339,1:09:25.310 right it basically says like we all

1:09:22.859,1:09:27.420 agree it's a run code that just

1:09:25.310,1:09:29.159 irregularly takes this money and just

1:09:27.420,1:09:32.339 reassigns it so that's other thing so

1:09:29.159,1:09:34.469 the the it's very weird because you know

1:09:32.339,1:09:37.020 we always think in like a sci-fi movie

1:09:34.469,1:09:39.810 that some thing that you think is human

1:09:37.020,1:09:42.329 would rip off its mask and reveal itself

1:09:39.810,1:09:44.520 to be a computer and this is the reverse

1:09:42.329,1:09:47.609 exactly pewter face is ripped off

1:09:44.520,1:09:50.880 revealing humans behind this this

1:09:47.609,1:09:53.099 technological stack yes and I mean

1:09:50.880,1:09:56.730 ultimately like people talk about head

1:09:53.099,1:09:58.889 of blockchain immutability and like this

1:09:56.730,1:10:00.900 is this idea that basically you're not

1:09:58.889,1:10:03.119 supposed to do this sort of thing and

1:10:00.900,1:10:05.909 where does that supposed to come from

1:10:03.119,1:10:08.010 exactly it so like there is there's

1:10:05.909,1:10:09.810 definitely a sense in which it exists

1:10:08.010,1:10:11.190 technologically because like actually

1:10:09.810,1:10:14.369 pulling off one of these Forks is

1:10:11.190,1:10:16.139 incredibly hard and for example if it

1:10:14.369,1:10:18.300 was not the case that the money was

1:10:16.139,1:10:20.550 conveniently stuck there and one nice

1:10:18.300,1:10:22.079 little address for 35 days it would

1:10:20.550,1:10:24.179 basically not have been possible to do

1:10:22.079,1:10:26.280 it right because when as soon as you

1:10:24.179,1:10:27.719 announced this protocol change that says

1:10:26.280,1:10:29.550 we're gonna take money out of CR put it

1:10:27.719,1:10:30.840 in there the attacker could just move

1:10:29.550,1:10:33.510 the money from there to a different

1:10:30.840,1:10:34.770 address and basically you play this

1:10:33.510,1:10:37.349 cat-and-mouse game and the attacker

1:10:34.770,1:10:39.989 could win but sometimes there is this

1:10:37.349,1:10:41.940 possibility where you up so that we can

1:10:39.989,1:10:44.820 and just like do these interventions and

1:10:41.940,1:10:46.199 you can just decide to stop writing this

1:10:44.820,1:10:50.159 code and start running this other code

1:10:46.199,1:10:52.500 and the only reason why this has not

1:10:50.159,1:10:54.929 done more frequently is basically

1:10:52.500,1:10:57.060 because their existing norms right in

1:10:54.929,1:10:58.770 their existing norms in the blockchain

1:10:57.060,1:11:00.510 community of lads iam fear of the

1:10:58.770,1:11:03.150 researcher I mentioned before and if

1:11:00.510,1:11:05.849 calls them a Szabo's Ally and named

1:11:03.150,1:11:07.409 after nick szabo and and nick szabo

1:11:05.849,1:11:08.900 actually just likes the moniker

1:11:07.409,1:11:10.769 like it is a pretty accurate

1:11:08.900,1:11:12.900 representation of kind of his beliefs

1:11:10.769,1:11:15.110 witches and the beliefs of many in the

1:11:12.900,1:11:18.869 crypto community which is basically that

1:11:15.110,1:11:21.630 like even though it technically is code

1:11:18.869,1:11:24.840 run by humans we should act as though it

1:11:21.630,1:11:27.059 is code not run by humans and look

1:11:24.840,1:11:29.249 because it is digital gold right gold is

1:11:27.059,1:11:30.479 not run by humans gold is gold and so if

1:11:29.249,1:11:32.550 we want to make something that is a

1:11:30.479,1:11:34.289 light gold then even though we're

1:11:32.550,1:11:35.939 unfortunately stuck with this thing run

1:11:34.289,1:11:38.459 by humans we should what try as hard as

1:11:35.939,1:11:40.260 we can to pretend it's not and like this

1:11:38.459,1:11:42.719 was the ideology of a lot of people in

1:11:40.260,1:11:46.260 this space and the dal fork very much

1:11:42.719,1:11:50.789 went against this ideology and so even

1:11:46.260,1:11:52.409 though in my opinion like having norms

1:11:50.789,1:11:54.300 that you can't just like go and edit

1:11:52.409,1:11:57.150 whatever you want is valuable but like

1:11:54.300,1:11:58.769 when so such a large fraction of the

1:11:57.150,1:12:00.869 ecosystem is at stake it's worth

1:11:58.769,1:12:02.969 rethinking things but like other people

1:12:00.869,1:12:04.889 were and if even more rigid in this

1:12:02.969,1:12:06.209 regard and so there was this kind of

1:12:04.889,1:12:08.939 split in the community

1:12:06.209,1:12:10.709 and a portion of the community actually

1:12:08.939,1:12:12.389 did not download the updates right a

1:12:10.709,1:12:13.949 portion of the community did not

1:12:12.389,1:12:16.139 download these code patches and

1:12:13.949,1:12:17.820 implement the fork and they just said we

1:12:16.139,1:12:20.579 will continue running our own our old

1:12:17.820,1:12:22.559 chain and the old chain has since then

1:12:20.579,1:12:26.249 been called a theorem classic and it

1:12:22.559,1:12:30.650 runs to this day this is a fascinating

1:12:26.249,1:12:33.209 civil war you know in essence yes and

1:12:30.650,1:12:34.919 what I get out of this is that there's

1:12:33.209,1:12:37.949 this very weird thing which is that

1:12:34.919,1:12:41.039 people get very attached to ideologies

1:12:37.949,1:12:43.019 and then they come to understand why the

1:12:41.039,1:12:46.709 simplistic version of that ideology

1:12:43.019,1:12:49.079 can't possibly work in a warm human

1:12:46.709,1:12:51.059 system I watched this it you have you

1:12:49.079,1:12:53.550 ever gone to this festival called a

1:12:51.059,1:12:55.380 femoral which is sort of Burning Man on

1:12:53.550,1:12:56.909 the water it was I was part of it and I

1:12:55.380,1:12:58.709 got invited to it but I haven't had the

1:12:56.909,1:13:01.559 chance to go yet so it's kind of a

1:12:58.709,1:13:04.679 libertarian Waterworld in the Sacramento

1:13:01.559,1:13:08.219 Delta and what was interesting is is

1:13:04.679,1:13:10.229 that one year in order to come to the

1:13:08.219,1:13:11.820 festival you had to have a lecture and

1:13:10.229,1:13:14.189 you had to agree that you would receive

1:13:11.820,1:13:15.449 the lecture because of problems that had

1:13:14.189,1:13:17.249 happened the previous year

1:13:15.449,1:13:21.170 and you realize that these libertarians

1:13:17.249,1:13:24.260 were being forced to invent governance

1:13:21.170,1:13:27.469 and rather than just anarchy you had to

1:13:24.260,1:13:30.320 have some organized system and so one of

1:13:27.469,1:13:34.690 my questions is is that is that dream of

1:13:30.320,1:13:34.690 escape from the heavy hand of government

1:13:35.469,1:13:41.870 effectively not something to be pursued

1:13:39.040,1:13:43.969 inside of crypto space for the most part

1:13:41.870,1:13:45.710 because we realized that it is going to

1:13:43.969,1:13:47.890 require governance and that we can't

1:13:45.710,1:13:51.920 figure out a way to turn this into a

1:13:47.890,1:13:54.080 completely cold and methodical process

1:13:51.920,1:13:56.960 it depends on which portion of the dream

1:13:54.080,1:13:58.940 you subscribe to like the if the version

1:13:56.960,1:14:02.000 of the dream you subscribe to is the

1:13:58.940,1:14:05.199 dream that says that we can finally use

1:14:02.000,1:14:08.840 algorithms to I basically completely

1:14:05.199,1:14:13.190 eliminate humans ability to interfere in

1:14:08.840,1:14:15.920 things then like if if your goal is to

1:14:13.190,1:14:18.739 see that enforced 100 percent then like

1:14:15.920,1:14:22.760 no you're not going to get that if your

1:14:18.739,1:14:25.820 dream is that you dislike how

1:14:22.760,1:14:27.380 governments have had existing

1:14:25.820,1:14:29.840 governments and monopolies of violence

1:14:27.380,1:14:32.300 have hegemony over this social function

1:14:29.840,1:14:34.699 of coordination and enforcing structures

1:14:32.300,1:14:37.190 of rules and you want there to exist an

1:14:34.699,1:14:39.880 alternative then like that's something

1:14:37.190,1:14:44.750 that we can talk about right so I mean

1:14:39.880,1:14:48.800 if if the dream is to augments yes and I

1:14:44.750,1:14:50.719 mean I'd argue that the block chains

1:14:48.800,1:14:53.360 have a variant of necessary role now

1:14:50.719,1:14:55.250 especially a kind of given modern kind

1:14:53.360,1:14:58.130 of political trends work there basically

1:14:55.250,1:15:00.500 is no single traditional political body

1:14:58.130,1:15:01.850 that's accepted as trustworthy by the

1:15:00.500,1:15:04.310 entire world and it doesn't look like

1:15:01.850,1:15:07.670 there's going to be one but if your

1:15:04.310,1:15:10.160 dream is to and if completely over

1:15:07.670,1:15:11.870 overturn things and have some simplistic

1:15:10.160,1:15:13.870 notion of digital property rights as the

1:15:11.870,1:15:17.630 only thing that governs behavior then

1:15:13.870,1:15:19.820 that's something that like you can try

1:15:17.630,1:15:21.170 for but you're not going to succeed let

1:15:19.820,1:15:23.510 me try something else with you that I'm

1:15:21.170,1:15:26.179 curious about you and I are both plugged

1:15:23.510,1:15:29.030 in to this weird alternate world that

1:15:26.179,1:15:29.919 thinks very differently and I had Andrew

1:15:29.030,1:15:31.510 yang

1:15:29.919,1:15:35.050 in that chair and you saw that episode

1:15:31.510,1:15:38.010 of the the point before some people call

1:15:35.050,1:15:41.409 this neuro divergence that this is a non

1:15:38.010,1:15:46.380 neurotypical world and I would say that

1:15:41.409,1:15:50.590 both you and I exhibit some indicia of

1:15:46.380,1:15:52.300 not thinking along standard lines the

1:15:50.590,1:15:55.599 thing that occurred to me is that you

1:15:52.300,1:15:59.110 brought up slight star codex which is

1:15:55.599,1:16:02.679 this website that is extremely

1:15:59.110,1:16:03.699 influential in our shared world and I

1:16:02.679,1:16:06.579 was thinking about the difference

1:16:03.699,1:16:08.550 between slate star codex and CNN in

1:16:06.579,1:16:12.280 terms of sense making

1:16:08.550,1:16:16.869 is there any way in which the etherium

1:16:12.280,1:16:20.649 world can create a counterweight so that

1:16:16.869,1:16:22.630 the neurodivergent can rest the

1:16:20.649,1:16:25.840 stranglehold that seemingly the

1:16:22.630,1:16:28.899 neurotypical institutional world seems

1:16:25.840,1:16:32.229 to have on sense making it scale like is

1:16:28.899,1:16:33.989 there a way of promoting another blog in

1:16:32.229,1:16:37.149 this world would be like less wrong

1:16:33.989,1:16:39.429 there particular thinkers that I think

1:16:37.149,1:16:42.099 of as being very important influential I

1:16:39.429,1:16:44.499 think you've given to our breda grey and

1:16:42.099,1:16:47.139 Elliot sir you'd kasky there's like this

1:16:44.499,1:16:51.280 very different world that isn't well

1:16:47.139,1:16:53.050 known and in part I view podcasting is

1:16:51.280,1:16:55.719 like pirate radio which is the phrase I

1:16:53.050,1:16:58.929 keep your sum is that because you're

1:16:55.719,1:17:02.439 Russian yes what can we do potentially

1:16:58.929,1:17:05.139 using your technology to even the

1:17:02.439,1:17:07.979 playing field between corporate

1:17:05.139,1:17:10.360 sense-making and this kind of

1:17:07.979,1:17:13.139 home-brewed sense making that seems to

1:17:10.360,1:17:16.059 me to be of an infinitely superior level

1:17:13.139,1:17:20.409 hmm well not infinitely but quite

1:17:16.059,1:17:23.349 superior yeah so I think like once again

1:17:20.409,1:17:26.889 there's kind of two aspects to kind of

1:17:23.349,1:17:28.809 blockchain TM that I think are equally

1:17:26.889,1:17:30.280 valuable here one is the technology

1:17:28.809,1:17:32.199 itself and then the other is the

1:17:30.280,1:17:35.469 existing community around the technology

1:17:32.199,1:17:39.639 and I mean with the tech with the

1:17:35.469,1:17:43.119 technology itself I mean you can try to

1:17:39.639,1:17:43.600 like create and you know institutions

1:17:43.119,1:17:47.050 for

1:17:43.600,1:17:49.780 I could do even things like funding like

1:17:47.050,1:17:51.640 podcasts for example and like even like

1:17:49.780,1:17:53.380 things like this kind of get coin grants

1:17:51.640,1:17:56.080 quadratic voting for example it would be

1:17:53.380,1:17:58.120 a potentially a great way to kind of

1:17:56.080,1:18:02.440 funds media organizations that avoids

1:17:58.120,1:18:04.270 the pitfalls of both say a present-day

1:18:02.440,1:18:06.190 media which is funded by some

1:18:04.270,1:18:08.290 combination of battery of like

1:18:06.190,1:18:10.420 advertising and horrible work made

1:18:08.290,1:18:13.000 incentives and at the same time avoid

1:18:10.420,1:18:15.160 the pitfalls of like basically sent

1:18:13.000,1:18:18.460 accentually controlled media and create

1:18:15.160,1:18:20.080 a third alternative so and like it

1:18:18.460,1:18:22.750 doesn't even have to be quadratic voting

1:18:20.080,1:18:24.610 it could be some other kind of mechanism

1:18:22.750,1:18:26.980 for funding and blog chains could be

1:18:24.610,1:18:30.880 used as a base layer for that there's

1:18:26.980,1:18:36.130 also the end up watching community as a

1:18:30.880,1:18:38.680 group of people who care about the many

1:18:36.130,1:18:40.450 of these kinds of ideas and I mean even

1:18:38.680,1:18:43.600 a lot of etherion people are definitely

1:18:40.450,1:18:46.450 and some weight star codecs adjacent and

1:18:43.600,1:18:49.480 then I feel like I have tried my best to

1:18:46.450,1:18:52.120 kind of bring these worlds together and

1:18:49.480,1:18:54.360 get them to talk to each other in means

1:18:52.120,1:18:56.380 sometimes it is a challenge because

1:18:54.360,1:18:58.270 there's ways in which they're similar

1:18:56.380,1:19:02.140 and there's a lot of people who are in

1:18:58.270,1:19:05.230 both and there's also ways in which

1:19:02.140,1:19:07.030 they're sometimes different but those

1:19:05.230,1:19:09.970 those differences can be a good thing

1:19:07.030,1:19:11.950 yeah I guess I'm concerned that in our

1:19:09.970,1:19:17.470 we were coming up on an election in the

1:19:11.950,1:19:19.300 US and I view Fox News in the New York

1:19:17.470,1:19:23.320 Times and CNN is like watching

1:19:19.300,1:19:25.300 professional wrestling it's got a very

1:19:23.320,1:19:28.630 clear narrative structure before the

1:19:25.300,1:19:29.890 facts even come in yeah this is this is

1:19:28.630,1:19:31.990 actually one of the things I've only

1:19:29.890,1:19:36.540 really started noticing maybe in the

1:19:31.990,1:19:39.190 last like one to two years I think it's

1:19:36.540,1:19:41.230 narratives are something that like don't

1:19:39.190,1:19:43.870 seem like you're there when you're fully

1:19:41.230,1:19:47.200 inside of them but once you and have

1:19:43.870,1:19:49.240 step outside and you start seeing that

1:19:47.200,1:19:50.980 Nick wait these people are missing

1:19:49.240,1:19:53.200 something and they're making predictions

1:19:50.980,1:19:55.780 that turn out to be materially incorrect

1:19:53.200,1:19:56.830 like yeah there's no memory like there's

1:19:55.780,1:19:59.260 no cost

1:19:56.830,1:20:01.750 yeah yeah you want to there's no

1:19:59.260,1:20:04.420 accountability at all and it's something

1:20:01.750,1:20:07.180 that you just actively start thinking

1:20:04.420,1:20:11.730 seeking out how to move beyond yeah you

1:20:07.180,1:20:15.940 know I think figuring out a better

1:20:11.730,1:20:18.730 funding model for media organizations in

1:20:15.940,1:20:21.010 general seems because in some ways what

1:20:18.730,1:20:23.500 I'm concerned about is that something

1:20:21.010,1:20:26.380 like podcasting is almost a public good

1:20:23.500,1:20:28.630 and so that's probably a public good

1:20:26.380,1:20:30.910 well I'm advertising in the one thing

1:20:28.630,1:20:34.360 that right I keep I call it the business

1:20:30.910,1:20:37.360 model of last resort yes and we are

1:20:34.360,1:20:39.070 going with an ad-supported model because

1:20:37.360,1:20:41.560 I don't want to disguise we were

1:20:39.070,1:20:46.630 somebody offered to endow the podcast

1:20:41.560,1:20:48.310 not not my employer and I decided

1:20:46.630,1:20:50.170 against it because I think what I really

1:20:48.310,1:20:52.690 want to do is to try to figure out how

1:20:50.170,1:20:53.730 to improve the business model we've

1:20:52.690,1:20:57.970 talked about a couple different

1:20:53.730,1:21:01.210 variations on advertising in order to

1:20:57.970,1:21:04.150 make sure that controversial but very

1:21:01.210,1:21:06.010 sensible and level-headed people can

1:21:04.150,1:21:08.620 weather the storm that the big problem

1:21:06.010,1:21:11.620 that I keep seeing is that advertisers

1:21:08.620,1:21:15.460 pull when there's a coordinated campaign

1:21:11.620,1:21:19.570 to say drop that program or else yes and

1:21:15.460,1:21:21.940 there's a a need for something like the

1:21:19.570,1:21:24.850 blockchain or a smart contract to make

1:21:21.940,1:21:27.520 sure that you can't silence people who

1:21:24.850,1:21:29.890 are speaking decently just because

1:21:27.520,1:21:33.460 they've pissed off a very large activist

1:21:29.890,1:21:35.380 community right so do you see any way in

1:21:33.460,1:21:38.170 which the blockchain for example like I

1:21:35.380,1:21:40.930 might give up advertising if I could

1:21:38.170,1:21:46.300 figure out a way to fund not only this

1:21:40.930,1:21:49.290 program but allied programs so in 2011

1:21:46.300,1:21:52.180 when I was starting Bitcoin magazine I

1:21:49.290,1:21:54.040 well it started off with like with this

1:21:52.180,1:21:56.770 one anonymous person whose name I'll

1:21:54.040,1:21:59.800 never know who aside from Kiba his

1:21:56.770,1:22:02.050 internet handle and who was just paying

1:21:59.800,1:22:03.970 me five Bitcoin which back then was $4

1:22:02.050,1:22:07.240 per article to write articles for him

1:22:03.970,1:22:08.650 and I mean this was five times or lower

1:22:07.240,1:22:09.910 than a minimum wage but I loved it

1:22:08.650,1:22:10.660 because it was the higher highest wage

1:22:09.910,1:22:15.250 I've ever had

1:22:10.660,1:22:17.650 um and eventually despite paying me five

1:22:15.250,1:22:20.260 times less than minimum wage at Kiba I

1:22:17.650,1:22:22.830 ran out of money and like he's told me

1:22:20.260,1:22:22.830 hey maybe

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