Portal:12: Vitalik Buterin - The Ethereal Prince and His Virtual Machine

Unedited Transcript
0:00:05.899,0:00:13.440 okay well just just you know it's a good

0:00:11.280,0:00:16.080 question so the idea is that the the

0:00:13.440,0:00:18.380 dimensionality coincidence is that in

0:00:16.080,0:00:20.939 the the dimension of the floating planes

0:00:18.380,0:00:23.309 will always be the dimension of the base

0:00:20.939,0:00:26.820 space alone

0:00:23.309,0:00:30.779 so imagine we're doing this in a hundred

0:00:26.820,0:00:35.960 dimensions and the base space were 72

0:00:30.779,0:00:40.140 dimensions and the fiber was 28

0:00:35.960,0:00:42.090 dimensions right it would be a seventy

0:00:40.140,0:00:44.420 to seventy two dimensional floating

0:00:42.090,0:00:44.420 plane

0:00:45.200,0:00:48.200 okay

0:00:48.350,0:00:52.840 any other questions along those lines

0:00:50.510,0:00:59.620 yeah I got one right

0:00:52.840,0:01:03.400 okay just just short once if say you

0:00:59.620,0:01:06.070 attach circular fibers to something do

0:01:03.400,0:01:07.960 they have a size or shape or does it

0:01:06.070,0:01:09.780 just is it just important that they're

0:01:07.960,0:01:12.280 cyclical like wooden ellipse our

0:01:09.780,0:01:15.220 Directorate substitution

0:01:12.280,0:01:18.040 yeah I like that a lot here's the big

0:01:15.220,0:01:22.180 problem with metric geometry versus

0:01:18.040,0:01:23.670 topology you were born into a world with

0:01:22.180,0:01:26.070 metric

0:01:23.670,0:01:28.979 and as a result it's very hard to

0:01:26.070,0:01:30.630 imagine things that don't have metrics

0:01:28.979,0:01:33.509 because every time you visualize

0:01:30.630,0:01:36.030 something you're seeing it inside of the

0:01:33.509,0:01:40.440 world that your brain knows which has a

0:01:36.030,0:01:45.799 size consideration so sometimes I say

0:01:40.440,0:01:50.490 imagine that you've got intensities four

0:01:45.799,0:01:53.790 degree of flavor so say take sweet salty

0:01:50.490,0:01:56.820 sour and bitter right

0:01:53.790,0:02:00.120 those are four dimensions four degrees

0:01:56.820,0:02:03.000 of freedom and you're asked a question

0:02:00.120,0:02:06.360 well is that more bitter than that other

0:02:03.000,0:02:08.610 thing was sour that that starts to put

0:02:06.360,0:02:11.100 you in a difficult spot you don't really

0:02:08.610,0:02:13.260 know how to say something is seven worth

0:02:11.100,0:02:16.050 of sour versus seven worth of bitter

0:02:13.260,0:02:22.470 versus seven worth of salt or seven

0:02:16.050,0:02:25.530 worth of sweet furthermore is his sweet

0:02:22.470,0:02:27.390 are sweet and sour to one person kind of

0:02:25.530,0:02:29.700 similar things that's why sweet and sour

0:02:27.390,0:02:31.200 works or does it really work because

0:02:29.700,0:02:34.110 they're opposite or it doesn't really

0:02:31.200,0:02:35.790 work because they really have almost

0:02:34.110,0:02:39.230 nothing to do with each other and it's

0:02:35.790,0:02:42.240 just two complementary sensations

0:02:39.230,0:02:46.370 different people might argue that the

0:02:42.240,0:02:50.370 angle between sweet and sour is

0:02:46.370,0:02:53.040 different it's acute it's obtuse it's

0:02:50.370,0:02:55.980 it's orthogonal so that's an indication

0:02:53.040,0:02:58.370 that in the four dimensional space of

0:02:55.980,0:02:58.370 taste

0:02:58.950,0:03:06.470 with those with those taste buds

0:03:01.410,0:03:06.470 there is no metric on that space

0:03:07.430,0:03:14.359 so when you have a fiber bundle there is

0:03:10.640,0:03:16.640 not necessarily a metric on the fibers

0:03:14.359,0:03:19.220 or the base space you're really when all

0:03:16.640,0:03:22.040 you have is a fiber bundle

0:03:19.220,0:03:25.460 you really are the category of

0:03:22.040,0:03:28.010 differential topology usually not

0:03:25.460,0:03:30.020 differential geometry or romani in

0:03:28.010,0:03:33.980 geometry where you would have length and

0:03:30.020,0:03:37.100 angle so in terms of circumference or

0:03:33.980,0:03:39.680 size or volume or all of these things in

0:03:37.100,0:03:41.360 general you have to learn how to forget

0:03:39.680,0:03:43.640 that those things are present so

0:03:41.360,0:03:45.950 sometimes I'll have a plane and I'm

0:03:43.640,0:03:48.740 visualizing it but I have to make a note

0:03:45.950,0:03:51.140 of myself the length and angle I have

0:03:48.740,0:03:54.470 when I'm visualizing has not been

0:03:51.140,0:03:57.260 supplied yet in the problem so we call

0:03:54.470,0:03:59.030 this the forgetful functor you know like

0:03:57.260,0:04:00.830 just forget that there is a length and

0:03:59.030,0:04:02.840 angle that you're able to see because

0:04:00.830,0:04:09.250 that's not specified in the problem I

0:04:02.840,0:04:14.209 hope that's helpful so is that like a

0:04:09.250,0:04:16.970 constructional tool it's not an actual

0:04:14.209,0:04:19.250 thing so like um

0:04:16.970,0:04:22.520 a construction line and of drawing it's

0:04:19.250,0:04:24.410 not meant to actually be a part of the

0:04:22.520,0:04:28.400 drawing it's meant to help you construct

0:04:24.410,0:04:30.860 a drawing well is the problem with the

0:04:28.400,0:04:33.080 problem with using visuals which I I'm

0:04:30.860,0:04:35.120 I'm trying to use visuals because I

0:04:33.080,0:04:37.070 believe it's the way in which the most

0:04:35.120,0:04:39.290 number of people who thought they sucked

0:04:37.070,0:04:42.680 at math will be able to understand

0:04:39.290,0:04:44.180 what's going on that there are some

0:04:42.680,0:04:48.770 downsides and I think it's a great

0:04:44.180,0:04:51.830 opportunity to start talking about the

0:04:48.770,0:04:56.170 great downside is well one of them is

0:04:51.830,0:04:58.610 that you become too dependent on the

0:04:56.170,0:05:02.270 artifact of the fact you're able to see

0:04:58.610,0:05:05.600 something for example let's imagine that

0:05:02.270,0:05:09.800 you have a sheet of paper that's square

0:05:05.600,0:05:12.680 and you agree that if you go off the

0:05:09.800,0:05:16.910 left side of that square you come

0:05:12.680,0:05:19.160 through the right in in a made-up world

0:05:16.910,0:05:21.380 and if you go out the top you come back

0:05:19.160,0:05:23.740 through the bottom doing the penguin

0:05:21.380,0:05:27.430 anything yeah you do it the pac-man or

0:05:23.740,0:05:30.140 asteroids if you're of a certain age

0:05:27.430,0:05:32.000 you're really playing on a tourist

0:05:30.140,0:05:33.919 you're really playing on a donut because

0:05:32.000,0:05:36.169 if you were to fold the left and the

0:05:33.919,0:05:37.729 right together and attach them you'd get

0:05:36.169,0:05:40.310 a cylinder and then if you attach the

0:05:37.729,0:05:42.860 top to the bottom you'd get it too so

0:05:40.310,0:05:45.830 all that time when you were playing in

0:05:42.860,0:05:47.810 the arcade you were actually playing on

0:05:45.830,0:05:49.960 a donut you just didn't think about it

0:05:47.810,0:05:49.960 because

0:05:50.300,0:05:54.860 it wasn't specified as a doughnut it was

0:05:53.030,0:05:58.220 specified as go out the left come

0:05:54.860,0:06:02.690 through the right so this is the globe

0:05:58.220,0:06:05.090 how some people make the flat map of the

0:06:02.690,0:06:08.180 globe and then you have like an actual

0:06:05.090,0:06:09.830 three-dimensional round globe well I I

0:06:08.180,0:06:12.400 don't want to get into issues of

0:06:09.830,0:06:15.260 distortion and map making because you're

0:06:12.400,0:06:17.870 ignoring all that it's that kind of idea

0:06:15.260,0:06:19.910 how how on the three-dimensional globe

0:06:17.870,0:06:21.680 you're going all the way around let me

0:06:19.910,0:06:25.250 get to the point of why I brought up

0:06:21.680,0:06:28.070 this this thing about the torus in three

0:06:25.250,0:06:31.790 dimensions if you have a torus the torus

0:06:28.070,0:06:34.310 is always curved but literally when you

0:06:31.790,0:06:35.630 have that square and you specify going

0:06:34.310,0:06:37.040 out the left coming through the right

0:06:35.630,0:06:40.880 and going at the top coming through the

0:06:37.040,0:06:43.220 bottom you really specified a flat torus

0:06:40.880,0:06:45.080 there is a flat metric on the torus with

0:06:43.220,0:06:49.970 no curvature it just doesn't sit in

0:06:45.080,0:06:52.900 three dimension so for example I have to

0:06:49.970,0:06:55.960 remember that when I picture a doughnut

0:06:52.900,0:06:57.800 tasty as it may be it's always

0:06:55.960,0:07:00.200 distorting the fact that the most

0:06:57.800,0:07:05.750 natural metric to put on that thing as

0:07:00.200,0:07:08.890 is is a flat one ergo you have to learn

0:07:05.750,0:07:08.890 how to adjust

0:07:09.930,0:07:14.970 the visual input for the mathematical

0:07:13.110,0:07:17.570 reality that may be masking or

0:07:14.970,0:07:17.570 distorting

0:07:21.150,0:07:27.540 so one more thing I wanted to sort of

0:07:25.080,0:07:31.580 ask the other day I was making that

0:07:27.540,0:07:33.930 javascript thing with the like the

0:07:31.580,0:07:40.009 crappy copy of what you demonstrated the

0:07:33.930,0:07:43.039 other day well this is our NH

0:07:40.009,0:07:45.050 I can't find you I'm so bad at

0:07:43.039,0:07:46.500 navigating this goddamn second one

0:07:45.050,0:07:49.410 second

0:07:46.500,0:07:54.590 I'm looking for you where am i like

0:07:49.410,0:07:57.390 aaron age okay keep going here in h so

0:07:54.590,0:08:00.750 just when I finish this and and and

0:07:57.390,0:08:02.430 plotting it all I so inside that it's

0:08:00.750,0:08:05.310 it's just can't be tried it's it's just

0:08:02.430,0:08:07.290 it's visually similar but there's no

0:08:05.310,0:08:09.630 Maps involved so don't don't look into

0:08:07.290,0:08:11.940 it very deeply but when I was doing that

0:08:09.630,0:08:15.690 I realized hey I've I've seen this

0:08:11.940,0:08:17.910 before you said you hadn't and I'm just

0:08:15.690,0:08:20.720 wondering if you've had any interest in

0:08:17.910,0:08:20.720 albatrosses

0:08:21.520,0:08:28.849 well are you familiar with albatross

0:08:25.759,0:08:30.559 I'm familiar with Coleridge's Rime of

0:08:28.849,0:08:35.380 the Ancient Mariner and I'm familiar

0:08:30.559,0:08:37.820 with the cover of Michael civics

0:08:35.380,0:08:39.949 differential geometry book where he is

0:08:37.820,0:08:42.589 saddled without albatrosses evoking

0:08:39.949,0:08:45.750 Coleridge

0:08:42.589,0:08:48.350 that might be what I'm about to talk

0:08:45.750,0:08:51.449 about so for everyone else is listening

0:08:48.350,0:08:54.480 so if you go to the beach you often see

0:08:51.449,0:08:57.690 like seabirds eagles and seagulls sort

0:08:54.480,0:09:01.470 of Ridge soaring so they'll they'll sit

0:08:57.690,0:09:03.930 on near a hill and there'll be a draft

0:09:01.470,0:09:05.550 of upward moving air and they will float

0:09:03.930,0:09:08.490 in that and so they're sort of falling

0:09:05.550,0:09:12.029 gliding in at the same rate that the air

0:09:08.490,0:09:13.769 is going up and and people can do that

0:09:12.029,0:09:15.329 they can paraglide and things but

0:09:13.769,0:09:18.029 albatrosses are different they seem to

0:09:15.329,0:09:21.690 have unlimited endurance so they can fly

0:09:18.029,0:09:24.509 forever without flapping at all and this

0:09:21.690,0:09:27.509 is they sort of found out that they can

0:09:24.509,0:09:30.360 use the boundary layer effect so

0:09:27.509,0:09:33.120 there'll be a wind across the ocean at

0:09:30.360,0:09:34.709 the ocean sort of ocean level there'll

0:09:33.120,0:09:38.750 be zero wind and up higher there'll be a

0:09:34.709,0:09:42.180 lot more and they sort of dive in to

0:09:38.750,0:09:43.829 dive into the wind and they have a huge

0:09:42.180,0:09:46.199 headwind which gives them a lot of lift

0:09:43.829,0:09:47.819 which lifts them up and then once

0:09:46.199,0:09:51.240 they're up in the air they'll dive away

0:09:47.819,0:09:53.009 from the wind which gives them speed so

0:09:51.240,0:09:54.990 the next time they dive into the wind

0:09:53.009,0:09:58.139 they've got a more of a headwind and

0:09:54.990,0:10:01.790 this is it feels like exactly the same

0:09:58.139,0:10:01.790 sort of penrose stairs that

0:10:02.110,0:10:06.040 any energy that they have been sort of

0:10:03.760,0:10:09.100 doing this arbitrage between the higher

0:10:06.040,0:10:11.470 and lower wind speeds near the ocean you

0:10:09.100,0:10:14.800 know it's a very nice example it may

0:10:11.470,0:10:17.800 actually be tight it may not be an

0:10:14.800,0:10:21.100 analogy so for example perhaps what

0:10:17.800,0:10:25.870 you've just told me is that updrafts are

0:10:21.100,0:10:28.240 a naturally occurring concept of a

0:10:25.870,0:10:30.700 horizontal subspace that is not

0:10:28.240,0:10:33.850 horizontal in the standard way in other

0:10:30.700,0:10:37.870 words what is horizontal relative to a

0:10:33.850,0:10:40.980 wind Blair is different than what is

0:10:37.870,0:10:44.820 horizontal with respect to the horizon

0:10:40.980,0:10:46.589 and in so doing you have an arbitrage

0:10:44.820,0:10:50.519 between two different notions of

0:10:46.589,0:10:52.410 horizontal and that would be very much

0:10:50.519,0:10:55.529 that would be very much the same thing

0:10:52.410,0:10:57.750 as I was saying that one person's salary

0:10:55.529,0:11:00.050 was constant purchasing power the other

0:10:57.750,0:11:02.190 person's salary was constant dollars

0:11:00.050,0:11:04.199 that's two different notions of

0:11:02.190,0:11:07.470 constancy maybe you just said told me

0:11:04.199,0:11:10.139 the same thing about wind layers that

0:11:07.470,0:11:14.420 that's actually a fiber bundle in the

0:11:10.139,0:11:14.420 making not an analogy I don't know

0:11:15.300,0:11:22.330 great yeah I've been I can see birds

0:11:19.120,0:11:24.640 from here from my window so I've been

0:11:22.330,0:11:28.810 observing them and the exact same sort

0:11:24.640,0:11:32.740 of cyclic up and down sort of with very

0:11:28.810,0:11:35.530 ingredients so in your visualization was

0:11:32.740,0:11:37.570 there any was that anything particular

0:11:35.530,0:11:40.420 or was that just a random no no we said

0:11:37.570,0:11:43.990 of angles it's actually the

0:11:40.420,0:11:46.270 visualization I mean I'll just tell you

0:11:43.990,0:11:49.150 late night people are you European and

0:11:46.270,0:11:50.650 oceanic people and Asian people what it

0:11:49.150,0:11:54.730 really was and then we can talk about

0:11:50.650,0:11:58.540 with the larger group another point if

0:11:54.730,0:12:02.380 you do the economic problem naively with

0:11:58.540,0:12:06.510 two goods say chicken and beef sold in

0:12:02.380,0:12:06.510 pounds or kilograms rather

0:12:06.620,0:12:12.390 you get too many dimensions to visualize

0:12:09.450,0:12:14.220 so you have two dimensions of good two

0:12:12.390,0:12:16.880 dimensions of price so that's four

0:12:14.220,0:12:20.340 dimensions and then if you want to do

0:12:16.880,0:12:22.530 price or goods again like either GDP or

0:12:20.340,0:12:24.720 inflation you have two additional

0:12:22.530,0:12:27.960 dimensions so you have get six six

0:12:24.720,0:12:29.910 dimensions overall so six dimensions

0:12:27.960,0:12:31.350 isn't gonna work in our visual cortex so

0:12:29.910,0:12:34.980 I worked hard to think how could I

0:12:31.350,0:12:37.530 decrease the cognitive load and I said

0:12:34.980,0:12:40.140 oh if I take the ratio of chicken to

0:12:37.530,0:12:41.820 beef purchased and the ratio of the

0:12:40.140,0:12:45.030 prices which is what tells me what a

0:12:41.820,0:12:50.570 barter is so whether chicken and beef

0:12:45.030,0:12:53.310 are two and three dollars a kilogram or

0:12:50.570,0:12:56.370 twenty and thirty dollars a kilogram it

0:12:53.310,0:12:59.240 doesn't affect what a barter is so in

0:12:56.370,0:13:01.890 the base space I put the ratios of

0:12:59.240,0:13:04.680 amount of chicken to amount of beef and

0:13:01.890,0:13:06.360 price of chicken to price of beef but

0:13:04.680,0:13:08.690 then since I actually wanted to track

0:13:06.360,0:13:09.949 how much

0:13:08.690,0:13:14.089 [Music]

0:13:09.949,0:13:16.369 the basket was growing I then put one of

0:13:14.089,0:13:20.250 the two components like chicken let's

0:13:16.369,0:13:23.650 say as the vertical in the fiber

0:13:20.250,0:13:26.380 so effectively what that was was was

0:13:23.650,0:13:28.630 measuring either GDP or inflation and

0:13:26.380,0:13:33.370 upon which kind of system but let's do

0:13:28.630,0:13:35.740 GDP now I've snuck both the ratio of

0:13:33.370,0:13:39.340 chicken to be purchased as well as the

0:13:35.740,0:13:41.620 total amount of say beef so therefore I

0:13:39.340,0:13:44.200 can back out the total amount of chicken

0:13:41.620,0:13:46.540 as well so now I've got a three

0:13:44.200,0:13:49.210 dimensional system because I'm only

0:13:46.540,0:13:52.870 using the price information that tells

0:13:49.210,0:13:56.040 me what a barter is and those loops

0:13:52.870,0:13:58.030 would be an example of going around a

0:13:56.040,0:14:02.040 system

0:13:58.030,0:14:02.040 that will that gave you constant

0:14:02.250,0:14:07.990 constant GDP and yet when you came back

0:14:06.160,0:14:10.060 around you were actually producing more

0:14:07.990,0:14:13.390 than you had previously so that's sort

0:14:10.060,0:14:17.290 of an economic paradox how can you be

0:14:13.390,0:14:18.700 constantly changing your GDP only by

0:14:17.290,0:14:20.620 barters therefore it's never getting

0:14:18.700,0:14:24.280 bigger or smaller but when you come back

0:14:20.620,0:14:26.140 you're actually producing ten percent

0:14:24.280,0:14:28.420 more than you were in the exact same

0:14:26.140,0:14:28.900 proportion of goods so that's where it

0:14:28.420,0:14:31.840 came from

0:14:28.900,0:14:34.810 and by the way so impressed was I with

0:14:31.840,0:14:36.610 your albatross example that I will

0:14:34.810,0:14:37.600 unlock an Easter egg how many of you

0:14:36.610,0:14:40.180 know that The Rime of the Ancient

0:14:37.600,0:14:42.360 Mariner is set to the tune of Gilligan's

0:14:40.180,0:14:42.360 Island

0:14:42.930,0:14:49.820 I don't actually know things except that

0:14:46.920,0:14:52.950 it's a poem by Coleridge's it man yeah

0:14:49.820,0:14:55.800 there is an Ancient Mariner and he

0:14:52.950,0:14:57.750 stopped with one of three bye they long

0:14:55.800,0:15:02.520 gray beard and I weary him

0:14:57.750,0:15:04.440 now wherefore stop now me so if you ever

0:15:02.520,0:15:06.899 want to memorize that poem

0:15:04.440,0:15:09.050 it fits perfectly for some reason to

0:15:06.899,0:15:12.000 Gilligan's Island which escapes me a

0:15:09.050,0:15:15.540 brief question given how busy you are

0:15:12.000,0:15:17.520 what time at Pierre Pacific so what time

0:15:15.540,0:15:20.430 are you frequently here because there

0:15:17.520,0:15:23.970 I'd love to talk more about the EEA with

0:15:20.430,0:15:27.800 you as well have an interesting I'm

0:15:23.970,0:15:33.270 trying to manifest randomly and it will

0:15:27.800,0:15:37.380 I think that it's it's supposed to be a

0:15:33.270,0:15:40.850 grab-bag it's awesome it's supposed to

0:15:37.380,0:15:42.750 be that you don't catch all of them and

0:15:40.850,0:15:45.120 just to the extent that there's any

0:15:42.750,0:15:49.280 design in it I mean right now I'm

0:15:45.120,0:15:53.950 investing hoping that I can pull back

0:15:49.280,0:15:53.950 once we get the culture kind of underway

0:15:54.310,0:16:00.050 if everybody gets a little bit of it but

0:15:57.050,0:16:02.060 nobody gets too much of it and people

0:16:00.050,0:16:04.250 can sort of say okay well this was the

0:16:02.060,0:16:07.580 intention

0:16:04.250,0:16:09.260 then my hope is is that the culture will

0:16:07.580,0:16:13.380 be

0:16:09.260,0:16:15.060 resident everywhere and people will say

0:16:13.380,0:16:16.530 I well I wasn't on that call what

0:16:15.060,0:16:18.350 happened somebody else will say I think

0:16:16.530,0:16:21.710 I understand it

0:16:18.350,0:16:24.800 and by the way you know just I want to

0:16:21.710,0:16:29.140 point out there will come days just as

0:16:24.800,0:16:31.910 just happened with linguistics where

0:16:29.140,0:16:33.260 somebody will say just as we were

0:16:31.910,0:16:35.630 talking about with like the Chomsky's

0:16:33.260,0:16:38.090 universal grammar and critiques thereof

0:16:35.630,0:16:41.480 I'm not immediately up on that I'm not

0:16:38.090,0:16:43.580 you know I came not falling I feel like

0:16:41.480,0:16:46.040 I'm I'm the the non mathematical

0:16:43.580,0:16:47.300 language guy odd nah I'm here don't know

0:16:46.040,0:16:50.120 but it's not that it's just a question

0:16:47.300,0:16:52.730 that people start to expect your heart

0:16:50.120,0:16:54.620 take on everything and you know it's

0:16:52.730,0:16:57.400 impossible what I was about to get to is

0:16:54.620,0:17:00.680 we will get 2 points with geometry

0:16:57.400,0:17:02.330 anthropology where somebody will say you

0:17:00.680,0:17:04.610 know Eric when you're transgressing the

0:17:02.330,0:17:07.670 churn be a representative of the second

0:17:04.610,0:17:09.470 part dragon class you know is there a

0:17:07.670,0:17:11.300 dependence on the vile curvature in the

0:17:09.470,0:17:14.150 case that the vile curvature splits in

0:17:11.300,0:17:16.850 dimension 4 under the star operator and

0:17:14.150,0:17:18.310 I'll say ah you know remember somebody

0:17:16.850,0:17:22.580 also say actually I happen to know that

0:17:18.310,0:17:24.650 so I'm looking forward to disappointing

0:17:22.580,0:17:26.960 you know that it will be coming and it

0:17:24.650,0:17:28.760 will become more frequent as the

0:17:26.960,0:17:31.370 capacity of the community gets a lot

0:17:28.760,0:17:33.410 higher a final statement uh just put it

0:17:31.370,0:17:35.780 this way Chomsky never in his entire

0:17:33.410,0:17:37.670 life ever ever integrated illusionary

0:17:35.780,0:17:38.900 theory into human language I think that

0:17:37.670,0:17:41.060 statement itself to someone like you

0:17:38.900,0:17:43.490 should be an obvious error and thinking

0:17:41.060,0:17:45.290 right and so that's kind of what I'm

0:17:43.490,0:17:47.450 getting at with it oh I'm super

0:17:45.290,0:17:51.260 interested in that point you know I've

0:17:47.450,0:17:53.900 made another point which is that I think

0:17:51.260,0:17:57.680 that people don't appreciate that the

0:17:53.900,0:17:59.840 reason consciousness is so hard is that

0:17:57.680,0:18:02.390 there's probably a continuum of things

0:17:59.840,0:18:04.370 that are conscious right down to the

0:18:02.390,0:18:06.020 fact that you know some in some sense

0:18:04.370,0:18:08.480 that my gut which has a turret

0:18:06.020,0:18:11.950 tremendous amount of neurons in it is

0:18:08.480,0:18:15.770 probably proto conscious in some way and

0:18:11.950,0:18:17.900 my concern of course is that when you

0:18:15.770,0:18:20.630 say that humans have language and no

0:18:17.900,0:18:23.270 other species is you know known to have

0:18:20.630,0:18:26.570 language or something like that that's

0:18:23.270,0:18:28.310 almost certainly wrong it's probably the

0:18:26.570,0:18:30.860 part of the definition of the word

0:18:28.310,0:18:31.600 language which is killing us it's worse

0:18:30.860,0:18:34.150 than that

0:18:31.600,0:18:36.490 skee I believe he wants to find language

0:18:34.150,0:18:38.410 is essentially just a spandrel which is

0:18:36.490,0:18:41.650 as absurd given if it's an adaptive

0:18:38.410,0:18:44.110 fitness value you know so and I think

0:18:41.650,0:18:45.970 just briefly again whatever it does or

0:18:44.110,0:18:47.470 has done it's kind of overturned a lot

0:18:45.970,0:18:49.600 of that and more and more people myself

0:18:47.470,0:18:51.850 I used to be a Chomsky in that I used to

0:18:49.600,0:18:53.650 study linguistics moved away from that

0:18:51.850,0:18:55.150 because it was so absurd retrospectively

0:18:53.650,0:18:58.929 to have not even have an eeveelution my

0:18:55.150,0:19:01.080 context so does everybody know what he

0:18:58.929,0:19:04.419 meant by spandrel in terms of

0:19:01.080,0:19:07.679 evolutionary theory yeah I was just put

0:19:04.419,0:19:10.950 yeah you're talking about earlier okay

0:19:07.679,0:19:10.950 so I

0:19:11.470,0:19:19.680 I get very angry when people let that

0:19:15.549,0:19:23.880 music is just a spandrel you know I mean

0:19:19.680,0:19:27.870 it's very hard to even say even hard to

0:19:23.880,0:19:31.350 say whether spandrels the the problem

0:19:27.870,0:19:32.100 that I have with all of this is the very

0:19:31.350,0:19:36.360 often

0:19:32.100,0:19:39.030 somebody has to over cut off' on a point

0:19:36.360,0:19:42.200 and for a period of time it becomes

0:19:39.030,0:19:45.140 dogma as it

0:19:42.200,0:19:48.290 makes its way through our consciousness

0:19:45.140,0:19:51.020 and then it has to be overturned and the

0:19:48.290,0:19:52.790 person never really I don't know Chomsky

0:19:51.020,0:19:54.470 meant it as strongly or you know he's

0:19:52.790,0:19:59.620 forced into a position where he had to

0:19:54.470,0:20:04.370 codify exactly what the rallying cry was

0:19:59.620,0:20:07.280 but you know in general science proceeds

0:20:04.370,0:20:10.850 through over claims and the triumphalist

0:20:07.280,0:20:13.490 period is necessary to consolidate

0:20:10.850,0:20:16.550 that's something dramatic has happened

0:20:13.490,0:20:18.220 and then the over claim becomes the sort

0:20:16.550,0:20:20.990 of seed corn for the next revolution

0:20:18.220,0:20:23.690 yeah but as you often say you want to

0:20:20.990,0:20:26.410 talk about a field where there there's

0:20:23.690,0:20:29.330 so much orthodoxy and institutional bias

0:20:26.410,0:20:30.290 the theoretical linguistics I was you

0:20:29.330,0:20:32.810 know I'm not anymore

0:20:30.290,0:20:35.030 for years no but not but I mean if you

0:20:32.810,0:20:36.950 were to suggest anything contrary to

0:20:35.030,0:20:38.930 Chomsky and doctrine you would be

0:20:36.950,0:20:42.320 crucified in fact Dan Everett the

0:20:38.930,0:20:46.630 scholar has been um he's looked as a

0:20:42.320,0:20:49.070 kook and he's odd because he thinks that

0:20:46.630,0:20:51.110 language has you wish for an adaptive

0:20:49.070,0:20:53.690 value and a cultural application it's

0:20:51.110,0:20:57.920 not just a computer system in your mind

0:20:53.690,0:21:00.290 and things like that and yeah I can tell

0:20:57.920,0:21:01.970 you someone who had to study syntax that

0:21:00.290,0:21:03.560 they they just spooned like if you if

0:21:01.970,0:21:05.870 you disagree but this had alternative

0:21:03.560,0:21:08.330 ideas you're just round and everything

0:21:05.870,0:21:10.940 had to conform to the Chomsky and you

0:21:08.330,0:21:12.500 may be the fact that linguistics is such

0:21:10.940,0:21:14.330 an obscure field to so many people

0:21:12.500,0:21:16.460 really allowed for this type of

0:21:14.330,0:21:17.930 orthodoxy to take a foothold that you

0:21:16.460,0:21:19.970 just wouldn't see in other fields that

0:21:17.930,0:21:22.650 are I wouldn't you say more accessible

0:21:19.970,0:21:25.600 but better known if you know what I mean

0:21:22.650,0:21:28.000 well as somebody who's challenged I mean

0:21:25.600,0:21:30.670 I've gotten was the first about string

0:21:28.000,0:21:32.800 theory and I had a very difficult

0:21:30.670,0:21:34.600 interaction with Graham on the program

0:21:32.800,0:21:36.040 the other night yeah I'm aware

0:21:34.600,0:21:38.800 couldn't follow it by the way cuz I'm

0:21:36.040,0:21:41.320 going to get birthing always thank you I

0:21:38.800,0:21:43.240 haven't released that so you know sorry

0:21:41.320,0:21:47.050 sorry it was it no then I'm confusing

0:21:43.240,0:21:48.910 him you know the inter gentleman who you

0:21:47.050,0:21:51.700 were disagreeing with him are you were

0:21:48.910,0:21:53.650 agreeing about disagreeing with am i

0:21:51.700,0:21:55.960 confusing him someone else Garrett Lisi

0:21:53.650,0:21:58.060 and I had some disagreements about his

0:21:55.960,0:22:00.130 theory but Garrett is not a string first

0:21:58.060,0:22:01.900 he's an anti-shock there so oh and I

0:22:00.130,0:22:03.670 would say Penrose is an anti string

0:22:01.900,0:22:06.640 person I think when I have Graham for

0:22:03.670,0:22:08.920 mellow he's not a string person but he's

0:22:06.640,0:22:14.020 friendly with the top group he's sort of

0:22:08.920,0:22:15.360 there chronicling the community and he's

0:22:14.020,0:22:17.860 he's sort of a part of the establishment

0:22:15.360,0:22:20.190 there's the string people talk to him

0:22:17.860,0:22:22.420 because they feel that they're getting a

0:22:20.190,0:22:24.640 knowledgeable and some other gear from

0:22:22.420,0:22:27.160 their perspective but when I started

0:22:24.640,0:22:29.380 talking to him I would hear him say

0:22:27.160,0:22:32.710 thing narratives that I very much

0:22:29.380,0:22:35.320 associated with particular people down

0:22:32.710,0:22:38.170 to the verbal tics and phraseology so

0:22:35.320,0:22:39.910 you know you feel that the chronicler is

0:22:38.170,0:22:41.290 becoming a pass-through and you're

0:22:39.910,0:22:45.250 actually listening to other voices

0:22:41.290,0:22:47.800 through the mouths of their earlier

0:22:45.250,0:22:49.570 interlocutor and then you have to say

0:22:47.800,0:22:52.270 are you are you really saying that you

0:22:49.570,0:22:53.830 believe these things or did you were you

0:22:52.270,0:22:57.550 told these things were you in a position

0:22:53.830,0:23:00.280 to evaluate these things it gets very

0:22:57.550,0:23:02.560 painful and the part of the part of the

0:23:00.280,0:23:04.630 problem that I'm having this is that I

0:23:02.560,0:23:06.490 would I would like to think that in

0:23:04.630,0:23:08.590 these chats you're getting to see who I

0:23:06.490,0:23:11.740 really am more than anything else that

0:23:08.590,0:23:14.650 I'm not highly disagreeable but if

0:23:11.740,0:23:17.320 somebody came into the chat and said he

0:23:14.650,0:23:20.170 you know well Erik is you very well know

0:23:17.320,0:23:24.180 you know if that was to be keeping of a

0:23:20.170,0:23:26.770 sudden the standard model is the supreme

0:23:24.180,0:23:29.200 example of the physical theory having a

0:23:26.770,0:23:32.920 high agreement was experiment that would

0:23:29.200,0:23:34.840 cause me to become a raging dick and I

0:23:32.920,0:23:35.830 would start saying you're talking about

0:23:34.840,0:23:38.350 the

0:23:35.830,0:23:41.500 most agree with the magnetic moment of

0:23:38.350,0:23:43.690 the electron to eleven decimal places in

0:23:41.500,0:23:45.669 quantum electrodynamics but that's not

0:23:43.690,0:23:48.720 true for this and that in QCD and you

0:23:45.669,0:23:51.340 know it you know now why am I suddenly

0:23:48.720,0:23:53.500 agitated why am i why am i becoming so

0:23:51.340,0:23:57.720 disagreeable it's because the argument

0:23:53.500,0:24:02.169 is being absorbed into the frame and I

0:23:57.720,0:24:05.740 think it's very worthwhile to watch and

0:24:02.169,0:24:09.429 monitor ourselves as we hear the

0:24:05.740,0:24:12.690 argument either advanced as an argument

0:24:09.429,0:24:14.820 or advanced as a frame

0:24:12.690,0:24:18.710 and when something has advanced as a

0:24:14.820,0:24:18.710 frame which is like for example

0:24:19.720,0:24:24.070 we cannot discuss anything to do with

0:24:22.059,0:24:26.080 intelligent design because the words

0:24:24.070,0:24:26.880 intelligent and design can not go next

0:24:26.080,0:24:28.780 to each other

0:24:26.880,0:24:30.730 well you understand what they're trying

0:24:28.780,0:24:32.830 to do they're trying to keep Jesus out

0:24:30.730,0:24:34.450 of evolutionary theory that's a noble

0:24:32.830,0:24:37.030 thing to do I don't think Jesus should

0:24:34.450,0:24:41.650 be an evolutionary theory on the other

0:24:37.030,0:24:44.710 hand because species have perception and

0:24:41.650,0:24:48.130 and cognition and try to select the best

0:24:44.710,0:24:49.690 mate it is also the case clearly that

0:24:48.130,0:24:51.940 when you can perceive your mating

0:24:49.690,0:24:55.470 opportunities and choose between them

0:24:51.940,0:24:59.890 you are engaging endogenously and in in

0:24:55.470,0:25:02.440 intelligent design now

0:24:59.890,0:25:04.390 that creates a very funny cognitive

0:25:02.440,0:25:07.270 problem because any evolutionary

0:25:04.390,0:25:10.390 theorist is supposed to recoil it and

0:25:07.270,0:25:11.800 say several prayers to where ward off

0:25:10.390,0:25:16.870 the devil if the words intelligent

0:25:11.800,0:25:19.270 design ever become adjacent now that

0:25:16.870,0:25:20.920 that you know that duplicates the terror

0:25:19.270,0:25:22.330 that you might have of contradicting

0:25:20.920,0:25:23.800 Chomsky and somebody would say well

0:25:22.330,0:25:26.890 surely you're not contradicting the

0:25:23.800,0:25:29.620 central dogma level of like molecular

0:25:26.890,0:25:34.190 biology that protein can't feed

0:25:29.620,0:25:35.840 information back into nucleic acid

0:25:34.190,0:25:38.299 my point to that would be well that's

0:25:35.840,0:25:40.490 very interesting why don't we just

0:25:38.299,0:25:44.120 entertain that to see whether or not it

0:25:40.490,0:25:46.700 creates a discomfort in you given that

0:25:44.120,0:25:49.190 no harm will actually occur

0:25:46.700,0:25:52.900 why why don't we just hypothesize that

0:25:49.190,0:25:55.850 like let's pretend that Jesus is really

0:25:52.900,0:25:58.040 active in evolutionary theory you'll see

0:25:55.850,0:26:01.070 that people just their physical

0:25:58.040,0:26:06.820 discomfort is enormous and if I can give

0:26:01.070,0:26:09.920 an analogy there is a toilet in the

0:26:06.820,0:26:12.670 Exploratorium in San Francisco or the

0:26:09.920,0:26:15.260 Exploratorium is a science museum and

0:26:12.670,0:26:17.570 the toilet is next to a water fountain

0:26:15.260,0:26:21.620 and somehow they put a water fountain in

0:26:17.570,0:26:23.930 the toilet and the water is perfectly

0:26:21.620,0:26:26.450 clean the question is will you drink

0:26:23.930,0:26:28.670 from the water fountain that is inside a

0:26:26.450,0:26:32.210 perfectly new toilet that's never been

0:26:28.670,0:26:35.810 used as a toilet as easily as you'll

0:26:32.210,0:26:38.810 drink from a water now you're encoding

0:26:35.810,0:26:40.360 disgust at the idea of drinking from a

0:26:38.810,0:26:43.120 toilet

0:26:40.360,0:26:45.580 but the point is that that's a primitive

0:26:43.120,0:26:47.500 not a prefrontal thing it's not

0:26:45.580,0:26:50.320 necessarily a bad thing that you should

0:26:47.500,0:26:52.269 feel disgust but you can at least notice

0:26:50.320,0:26:54.100 that the thing that is telling you not

0:26:52.269,0:26:56.919 to drink from this the very safe

0:26:54.100,0:27:00.730 drinking fountain put into a toilet is

0:26:56.919,0:27:02.790 that it was a heuristic that hardened

0:27:00.730,0:27:05.520 into dog

0:27:02.790,0:27:08.870 and I highly encourage people to both

0:27:05.520,0:27:11.890 respect those heuristics that cause us

0:27:08.870,0:27:14.830 to have discussed

0:27:11.890,0:27:16.090 and to be able to question them if

0:27:14.830,0:27:18.010 you're really going to be the

0:27:16.090,0:27:20.440 intellectual elite you know this is a

0:27:18.010,0:27:25.030 source of profit if you can entertain an

0:27:20.440,0:27:26.830 idea that others cannot without undoing

0:27:25.030,0:27:28.450 the hard work that your brain has put

0:27:26.830,0:27:30.580 into keeping you safe

0:27:28.450,0:27:33.130 by having these heuristics be quite

0:27:30.580,0:27:35.050 powerful you will be in a much better

0:27:33.130,0:27:37.060 position to go back and forth between

0:27:35.050,0:27:40.380 being a regular human being who never

0:27:37.060,0:27:42.930 drinks from a toilet and being

0:27:40.380,0:27:45.520 intellectually liberated and free in

0:27:42.930,0:27:48.750 that you can conceive of the idea that

0:27:45.520,0:27:48.750 one should drink from a toilet

0:27:52.539,0:27:59.409 and with that notion of drinking from

0:27:56.229,0:28:03.009 toilets the sleepy man who is hoping to

0:27:59.409,0:28:06.940 reach Europe Asia and Oceania or in

0:28:03.009,0:28:09.269 Africa must go to sleep thank you guys

0:28:06.940,0:28:12.419 for hanging out and keeping me company

0:28:09.269,0:28:12.419 thank you